Interior removal questions

[JoshS]

Based on my reading of the rules, I can remove absolutely no wiring from the interior of the car. It also appears that I cannot remove stereo speakers and amps.

I assume that I can remove components that were mounted in my center console, such as the climate control adjuster knobs. But I cannot remove the bulk of the climate control system from under the dash, such as the fan, heater core, duct work, etc. I also cannot remove any steel brackets from under there. I think I can remove the glove box, which was mounted to the main part of the dashboard.

Are these interpretations consistent with the generally accepted practice in IT cars today?

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

My take: YMMV.

Based on my reading of the rules, I can remove absolutely no wiring from the interior of the car. [/b]

Correct.

It also appears that I cannot remove stereo speakers and amps.[/b]

Correct. That is the way the rule reads. You won't find many on grid as many people just take out the whole 'radio system' as a whole. This may be a decent area for a clarification in the rules for 2007.

I assume that I can remove components that were mounted in my center console, such as the climate control adjuster knobs. [/b]

I need to understand your question better. You can remove the center console in whole, so why are you asking about the adjuster knobs? I don't consider adjuster knobs to be 'operating mechanisms'...nothing "operates" the center console...but that would be moot anyway if you just removed the whole console as you are allowed. I think if you leave it in, the 'stuff' has to stay.

But I cannot remove the bulk of the climate control system from under the dash, such as the fan, heater core, duct work, etc. I also cannot remove any steel brackets from under there. [/b]

I agree.

I think I can remove the glove box, which was mounted to the main part of the dashboard.[/b]

I disagree. Unless your cage requires the removal of the glovebox, I think it stays. I do not consider it a 'removable cover' or anything else specifically allowed to be removed.

Are these interpretations consistent with the generally accepted practice in IT cars today? [/b]

Sometimes generally accepted practices are dangerous... Understand that I read the rules in a more conservative manner than some.

 

[JoshS]

I disagree. Unless your cage requires the removal of the glovebox, I think it stays. I do not consider it a 'removable cover' or anything else specifically allowed to be removed.
[/b]

Well, in this car, there is a lower cover under the dash on the passenger side, and this cover "contains" the glove box. It actually all comes out in one piece -- it's one part number from BMW.

Maybe this page will illustrate it better. I'm thinking I can remove everything in the diagram.

Here's what the dash looks like without the cover/glove box in place:

 

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

I left the center console in because it's the only element that provides suport for the middle of the dash. Otherwise, the middle of the dash will sag down. I also like having the parking brake lever installed so that I can use the parking brake to secure the car on the trailer in addition to the tie down straps. I'm just carefull not to engage it after comming in from the track when the brakes are hot to keep the rear rotors from warpping. You could have the seat heating elements installed in the cover to your racing seat, imagine a race car with heated seats

James

 

[JoshS]

I left the center console in because it's the only element that provides suport for the middle of the dash. Otherwise, the middle of the dash will sag down. I also like having the parking brake lever installed so that I can use the parking brake to secure the car on the trailer in addition to the tie down straps.
[/b]

Hi James,

Does your car still have the big lateral round steel bar that the main dash sits on? I suspect something is missing from your car that allows the dash to sag -- and it's not the center console. There is absolutely no way that removing the center console, but leaving everything else stock, can allow the dash to sag.

Contact me privately if you want to discuss further. But if your dash sags without the center console, then there are surely more things missing from your car than the engine wiring harness.

Check out this diagram, part #3. Andy, I'm thinking it's the stuff in this diagram that I have to leave intact.

As for the parking brake, I'm leaving that in, for the same reasons as you. It can also be handy when paddock areas aren't 100% flat.

 

[gran racing]

The glove box is a bit of a grey area thing. My previous Prelude did not have the glove box (although I did buy a junk yard one to instal). According to the Honda shop manual, it stated that the glove box was not part of the dash and if I had ordered a dash from Honda, the glove box would not be included. That said, with my new car I'm building now, the glove box is staying. One is that I don't want to play around with the gray area, but the other reason is how useful it is! The video camera can be kept there (I use a remote lipstick camera), the fuel test port, and other goodies.

 

[MMiskoe]

Considering the thread has been started & I've been wondering myself:

If you are removing power windows to install nascar bars, how far back can you take the wiring for said windows?

Same for power door locks? The interior handle will go, can the wiring be removed all the way back or does it have to stay because the exterior handle remains un-changed?

Power mirrors? Wiring back to the point it doesnt share with anything else?

FWIW, if the "A/C System" can be removed in its "entirety", wouldn't that mean that anything involved in the use of AC can go - ducts, controls, wiring etc, even if they do serve other portions of the heat system?

Matt

 

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

You have to remember that when my car was started there wasn't an IT class for it. It was started as a backup chassis for Grand Am cup where TC Kline campaigned the sister cars. So it's definetly started out a little more modified than an IT car should be. The reason the dash support was removed was that the cage front supports follow the inner window frame structure to the top of the dash then drop down to the floor right where the dash support would be. The cage is a work of art as McMahan did an excellent job with it. Are you having Tony at TC Designs do your cage? If you're going to cut the dash and run the front down tube through, I think you'll find the same conflict. Also, as there's not much room for spare gauges and I don't have the the center vents I put in a gauge panel with my oil pressure and water temp so I can glance and see if the pressure and temp are good without having to look farther down. If someone wants to get nick-pickey with my car, then sure protest away, they'd just be showing what kind of jerk they'd be. Who's to say what my car came with originally, it's the 34th 2.8l to come off the line, and as an early preproduction modle maybe some stuff was left off

James

 

[lateapex911]

FWIW, if the "A/C System" can be removed in its "entirety", wouldn't that mean that anything involved in the use of AC can go - ducts, controls, wiring etc, even if they do serve other portions of the heat system?

Matt
[/b]

No.

In most cars, there is an HVAC system. Heating, Venting and Air Conditioning system.

Within that sytem, certain components provide services to one aspect of the system, such as heating, or air conditioning, and other components provide services to all functions of the system. Ducts that blow air are used by all components and must stay. Air conditioning compressors are specific to only the air condioning aspect of the system and may be removed. IF a car has a system, (as some very old cars do) that has a parallel setup, (where the AC ducts are used only for AC..these were often tacked on by the dealer), than those ducts associated with only the AC function could be removed legally.

Boxes that route air under the dash, can not be removed, as thay are part of the heating aspect of the system.

Thats the way it looks to me at least.

 

[JoshS]

The reason the dash support was removed was that the cage front supports follow the inner window frame structure to the top of the dash then drop down to the floor right where the dash support would be.
[/b]

Of course, but the rules don't really allow for that. In my other Showroom Stock and Touring cars, I've managed to do through-the-dash cages without removing that bar. We'll see if we can do that in the Z3 soon.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

Of course, but the rules don't really allow for that. In my other Showroom Stock and Touring cars, I've managed to do through-the-dash cages without removing that bar. We'll see if we can do that in the Z3 soon.
[/b]

9 c) ....Other than modifications made for mounting instruments and provide for roll cage installation....

Sounds like it allows it to me.

James

 

[JoshS]

If you are removing power windows to install nascar bars, how far back can you take the wiring for said windows?

Same for power door locks? The interior handle will go, can the wiring be removed all the way back or does it have to stay because the exterior handle remains un-changed?

Power mirrors? Wiring back to the point it doesnt share with anything else?
[/b]

I don't see any allowance that would allow you to remove any of that wiring. I think it's only door structure and window mechanisms that can be modified. Quoting the book:

"The door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed. The stock side impact beam, if equipped, and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified. This gutting of the door shall only be made if roll cage incorporates NASCAR-style side protection extending into the door."

 

[charrbq]

Your best bet is to buy, read, and apply the rules pertaining to IT that are found in the GCR. If there are any questions you might have, you can always contact the Technical department for an opinion. That might not win you a protest, but it can't hurt, and they are more informed than most of us on rules (by necessity).
Many of the opinions on the rules of car preparation found on this forum are not necessarily correct...regardless of who gives them or what position they might hold in club racing.

 

[shwah]

You can in some cases remove wiring. For instance some of our older cars were delivered with and without power windows, thus you could certainly remove the window regulators and associated wiring IF it was absent from the crank window car.

Some cars were also delivered with optional stereo systems. You can remove all the speakers in that case as well.

All of this only applies if a car that fits on your spec line was available in the condition that you end up with on your car, which of course probably does not allow anything different that what has been said here regarding the BMW, but would apply to lots of A2 VWs.

 

[AntonioGG]

For the guys asking about the radio "system", look up the definition of system in the GCR glossary.
IMHO, speaker and antenna wires can be removed per the GCR. Those wires serve no other function. Anyone protesting removal of those wires would be filing a weenie protest. The weight is negligible and it mostly serves to clean up the interior of the car, and makes troubleshooting much easier.

Power window and power door lock wires cannot be removed I think. First because you're not told you can remove them, it doesn't say you can remove that system, and cars without those options still came with the same harness.

 

[x-ring]

For the guys asking about the radio "system", look up the definition of system in the GCR glossary.[/b]

The GCR definition of system, in this case, is not relevent. Our rules allow us to remove the radio receiver, not the radio system.

IMHO, speaker and antenna wires can be removed per the GCR. [/b]

IMHO, they can't. See above.

Anyone protesting removal of those wires would be filing a weenie protest.[/b]

THAT, I'll agree with.

 

[AntonioGG]

Oops, sorry about that. I thought SM and IT were the same...who would have thought IT is more restrictive than a SS based class?

 

[x-ring]

Oops, sorry about that. I thought SM and IT were the same...who would have thought IT is more restrictive than a SS based class?
[/b]

On the subject, I was chatting with Brian Culbertson late one night last week in front of Tech-Majal at HPT and mentioned the radio receiver thing; he encouraged me to send a letter and said that it would probably be looked upon favorably.

 

[shwah]

Power window and power door lock wires cannot be removed I think. First because you're not told you can remove them, it doesn't say you can remove that system, and cars without those options still came with the same harness.
[/b]

Maybe your car came that way. Crank window VWs do not have the wiring associated with the power windows. Manual lock VWs do not have the vacuum pump, actuator and lines of the power lock system. I am sure there are a number of other cars that are the same way. What you say is correct if all cars have the wiring regardless of options, but if they don't then pull that junk out.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

Here's a question:

Where in the IT GCR's does it allow the removal of the stock seat belt mechanism, but show me one IT car that still has it in it??

Also, what if a speaker is mounted in the door panel. Every car came with this speaker, a tweeter actually, mounted in the door panel. Can you remove the door panel? If you can't remove the door panel, then you can't install the door bars, but if you do remove the door panel then you remove a speaker that's not allowed to be removed. Pyromatic seat belt tensioners aren't listed as being removable. You must change the seat, but if the car came standard with seat heaters, must one find a a racing seat that has the seat heaters installed? How about external amplifiers? how about CD-disk changers? BTW, thanks Kirk for writing in a requesting the removal of eletric door locks.

James