Rules Questions

Bildon

Bildon

New member
"Batteries may be replaced with those of alternate manufacture provided they
are of similar amp-hour capacity and weight and are fitted in the standard location."

- What does similar mean?

"Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."

- Can the oil pan have a reinforced 'kick out" that is within .05" of the subframe and therefore act effectively as an anti-torque device?

"... head gasket(s) may be replaced with any gasket(s) having the same compressed thickness as stock. Other engine gaskets are unrestricted."

- So can an intake gasket be a 3" thick gasket?

"Remote reservoir shock absorbers are prohibited"

- What is a remote reservoir? If there is a reservoir "bulge" in the shock body is that remote? What if the "bulge" is a permenantly attached cylinder? Is that remote? If there is no freely movable canister attached via a hose is this legal? Much more affordable shocks are now available with remote reservoirs than these attached ones...time for this rule to change?
wcj400.jpg
stj400.jpg
motorsportprodukt10003.jpg
5150.jpg


"e. Any ignition system which utilizes the original distributor for spark timing and distribution is permitted. Crankfire ignition systems are prohibited unless fitted as original equipment. "

- What if the crank sensor only controls spark timing? Is that crankfire?

Just some stuff to chew on..please dont freak out and fight. I'm really looking for an intelligent dialog. :023:
 
Originally posted by Bildon@Dec 27 2005, 06:31 PM

- Can the oil pan have a reinforced 'kick out" that is within .05" of the subframe and therefore act effectively as an anti-torque device?

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I will take a shot at an easy one
"no permited component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function"
 
But TWO stayrods are not legal, so anything extra is functioning as a second stayrod, and thereby performing an illegal function...

but....

If there is NO stayrod, then that might be an interesting loophole.....although it certainly fails to be defined as a stayrod, it might slip through in a grey area debate.

Sort of like the "air bushing" does in "bushing material is free".

I'm sure there are situations where it might be useful to get your stayrod function that way, but I can't thi k of any right now.

And I have to think a proper stayrod is cheaper, easier, and more effective.


The shock rule probably warrants a look.

Agreed, "Similar" is too loose, and relies on reasonable judgement. A bad thing! Conceptually perhaps the term "Within 105 of orriginal measurements" is a good add.

Good eyes.
 
Purely IMHO.....

I would say the oil pan you propose is 100% legal. It's not a stay rod and if you want to bash it every time you torque the engine, knock yourself out.

As for the RR dampers, I'd say the ones rigidly attached, but separate from the main body are still RR. However, the ones with the bulge in the main body IMHO are not RR.

Just IMHO.
 
Shocks, from the glossary:
Remote Reservoir Shock Absorber - Any shock absorber or dampening device which uses an externally mounted (connected either by hose or “piggy back” design) fluid and/or gas reservoir.

Crank fire, again from the glossary:
Crank-Triggered Ignition - An ignition system in which the triggering pulses are obtained from a pickup and wheel connected directly to the crankshaft, or to an intermediate pulley.

Gasket, not a direct answer, but would a 3" one meet the definition of a gasket:
Gasket - A sealing component of unspecified composition which is intended to prevent the leakage of a fluid (air, water, oil, etc.) at the interface between two demountable assemblies.
I think it would be hard to argue that 3" was required to seal the interface.

Battery:
Didn't they/we allow gel cell batteries a while back, sort of trumping the similar thing? I don't see it in the 2006 GCR though...
 
If the shcoks in the picture ( the first two ) are the ones you question then there is plenty of people in question. I dont see how that bulge could be considered remote..... The other two I can see that being a remote unit
 
The intake gasket thing is a good question..... I think some of the honda guys use a thick intake gasket that doubles as a heat insulator.... But I dont see how this can be illegal using the current wording.
 
Originally posted by Bildon@Dec 27 2005, 06:31 PM
"Batteries may be replaced with those of alternate manufacture provided they
are of similar amp-hour capacity and weight and are fitted in the standard location."

- What does similar mean?

"Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."

- Can the oil pan have a reinforced 'kick out" that is within .05" of the subframe and therefore act effectively as an anti-torque device?

"... head gasket(s) may be replaced with any gasket(s) having the same compressed thickness as stock. Other engine gaskets are unrestricted."

- So can an intake gasket be a 3" thick gasket?

"Remote reservoir shock absorbers are prohibited"

Heres one I would like you guys to field.  I was told that remote reservoir shock were a waste of time in 10 lap races so why spend the money.  This is not the question,just had to throw it in.

Shocks have compression and rebound,if you mount TWO shocks per side one upside down with different rebound it works the shock very little during one or the other cycles.  Less heat and shock stays stable longer.  Are two shocks per wheel permited?  A few adapters and not changing points will fit under the rear of most cars.
Lawrence 

- What is a remote reservoir? If there is a reservoir "bulge" in the shock body is that remote?  What if the "bulge" is a permenantly attached cylinder? Is that remote? If there is no freely movable canister attached via a hose is this legal? Much more affordable shocks are now available with remote reservoirs than these attached ones...time for this rule to change?
wcj400.jpg
stj400.jpg
motorsportprodukt10003.jpg
5150.jpg


"e. Any ignition system which utilizes the original distributor for spark timing and distribution is permitted. Crankfire ignition systems are prohibited unless fitted as original equipment. "

- What if the crank sensor only controls spark timing? Is that crankfire?

Just some stuff to chew on..please dont freak out and fight.  I'm really looking for an intelligent dialog.  :023:
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>> Crank fire, again from the glossary:
>> Crank-Triggered Ignition - An ignition system in which the triggering pulses are obtained from a pickup and wheel connected directly to the crankshaft, or to an intermediate pulley.

I already read this Glossary def. and then formed my question. As the IT rule does not clarify. They in fact seem to cloud the issue. <_<

IT rules read:
- Any ignition system which utilizes the OE distributor for spark timing and distribution is permitted.
&
- Crankfire ignition systems are prohibited unless fitted as original equipment. "

So again, What if the crank sensor which is "a pickup and wheel connected directly to the crankshaft" only controls spark timing? Is that crankfire ignition? And therefore does that pass the test? "unless fitted as original equipment" ??? :blink:
 
Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 12:54 PM
The intake gasket thing is a good question.....  I think some of the honda guys use a thick intake gasket that doubles as a heat insulator....  But I dont see how this can be illegal using the current wording.
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I dont think the 3" gasket would fly...it is not being used as intended...it is an intake runner if it is thicker (provides a different function). where is the line drawn? I guess if you can just visually prove it is not a gasket and it is a spacer, job done...as for shocks, the bulging ones are not remote as the gas/liquid is contained in the shock body...piggyback or with hose attached is a remote resivoir. as far as bashing the oil pan into the frame rail, I wouldnt want to know the dynamics of how it would work...ouch and sounds silly expensive to develop for not alot to gain...i guess someone could try it...just not me :blink:
 
IT rules read:
- "Any ignition system which utilizes the OE distributor for spark timing and distribution is permitted.
&
- Crankfire ignition systems are prohibited unless fitted as original equipment. "

The "OE distributor for spark timing" part specifies that your timing parts, either points or electronic, will be housed in the distributor housing.
"Distribution" means that the spark is sent to the proper plug through the stock distributor cap.
"Crank triggered" would refer to any ignition that is triggered from something mounted to the crankshaft.

Now what do we do with the coil pack igintion cars? They are triggered by the ECU from a pickup ususally on the camshaft. And sometimes the ignition timing is determined by the ECU or in the coil pack itself. So are alternate coil packs legal? Do you have to maintain the ignition timing within the ECU or coilpack, or can you "use any ignition system" from the OEM cam trigger? Distribution is by individual coilpacks that usually use the lost spark system to drive two sparkplugs per coilpack.

And then you have my car, which uses a pickup on the flywheel to trigger either the coilpack directly, 83-85 with the timing in the coilpack, or through the ECU to the coilpack, 85-87 with the timing in the ECU. Both of them use a distributor cap mounted on the end of the cam for distribution. That leaves a number of alternatives with the allowable updating and backdating rule, and aftermarket equipment available.

Then the newest thing is to have each sparkplug supplied with it's own coilpack which is triggered from the ECU from whatever rotational pickup point that was chosen by the manufacturer.

When the IT rules were written in the early 70s, some cars may have had the newly invented aftermarket electronic componants in their distributor to eliminate the points, but they never dreamed of the electronic advancments we have today. The current rule does not address many of the current ignition systems, ECUs, fuel injections, etc. not to mention what is coming in the future.

None of this alters the basic operation of the mechanical parts of the engine, only how you set the timing, and the timing advance curve, all of which were adjustable with the old ignition points distributor.
There is only one optimal timing setting for each group of mechanical parts called an engine. In the end it shouldn't matter how you do it. It appears that the original intent of the rules were to allow you to do it any way you wanted, as long as you used the manufacturers trigger point and distribution system.
 
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