Curious about KA24DE classing.

I assume the 225HP stock parts motor (not IT legal) is the S14 MAF and ECU (or AEM), with the S13 DOHC and the SOHC pistons. Which would be the best combination of 240SX parts - highest flow MAF housing, best cam profile and highest CR possible (north of 11:1).
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Close there was some custom machining that went on to get the compression to 12.5 and We also squeezed a little more than factory duration out of it. You get the basic picture. Getting to a reasonable W/HP number may not be doable. I am still working on it though.
 
Yes - a fellow competitor. And yes, I agree - the mods DO make power differently on each car. e.g. the FC's have a header/exhaust combination that makes a 28% gain over stock. Supposedly JUST with that header/exhaust change! And the individual I was considering for comparison doesn't have this top of the line job - he has the 2nd or 3rd best option.

For comparison:
my car: JWT ecu, HotShot headers, 3" header-back exhaust, electric fan, 160k motor
his car: header, 3" header back exhaust, elect fan, open filter air intake, 120k roatree

As to the handling-vs-power, driving 240's on track since I first started DEFINITLY made me appreciate proper driving style and keeping speed through the corners (compared to others I know that started out with AWD pitch-and-catch driving styles). And the 240 does seem to corner on par with the Miatas....which does say something about the car considering the weight difference.

In places like Nelson Ledges - the car can hold it's own pretty good, since there's so many long turns - and the track tends to favor handling (and proper shocks!!....holy bumpy!) over power. But at places like VIR full course - the gain through the twisties is offset quite easily by that looooonnnnggg back straight!

joe
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Yeah, VIR is a tough place when the really fast guys show up!! But it's only 30 miles for me so I show up, drive my butt off and hope for the best.

Keep the info coming!!
 
Close there was some custom machining that went on to get the compression to 12.5 and We also squeezed a little more than factory duration out of it. You get the basic picture. Getting to a reasonable W/HP number may not be doable. I am still working on it though.
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Nice. IIRC the KA is still a bit lighter than the entire SR20DET package, so getting those types of NA numbers is killer. What was the intended use of the build? Customer? For the fun of it?
 
Nice. IIRC the KA is still a bit lighter than the entire SR20DET package, so getting those types of NA numbers is killer. What was the intended use of the build? Customer? For the fun of it?
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No I ran it in my RS car. I am doing one now that should see 265 to 275 at the flywheel. I will be all race parts though. I lso have started collecting parts to do an all out ITS engine. I will likely have to put it in Darins car mid year and test it. Lucky for me that he has wrecked and broken enough of my stuff over the years that I should be able to be comfortable taking chances with his hotrod... B)
 
...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer
 
...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer
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What change in the intake rule do you think will help this car? Joe and I have discussed this previously and see only minor gains at the most with the air intake. As for the underdrive pulleys, I would love to get all the info about these as this is one change that I have yet to make.
 
...coming out of the woodwork...

I have a '92 S13 with KA24DE that I built for ITS. I've had it at quite a few DE's getting it all sorted out, so I can hit the ground running. The car has an overbuilt cage, and at my weight of 170lbs, I was under 1650lbs total for the car and myself. With a properly stripped/built car, there should be no problem getting to minimum weight on the S13 in ITS...it's another story for the ITA cars.

I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.

That being said, what is the general consensus on the amount of HP needed for the ITS 240sx cars to be competitive in the current ITS world?

My car still has 3-4 track days of development before I race it, but the times are real close to where they should be in ITS. I personally want to see the car stay where it is. The intake rule change and allowance of underdrive crank pulleys does a lot with this car…these rule changes did very little for the RX7’s.

Give me a couple more months of development, and I’ll talk again on this. *Hopefully* I won’t change my mind and just buy an ex-SS car. Or blow everything I own on a DSR.

Tim Breuer
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Tim, quick note and I will give more thought will working today. The S13 is the car I would build if I were starting from scratch for and ITS car. It cleary has more of a shot and making weight and the 91 has the best cams of all years. Even given the poor MAF flow. The big air tube rules help but I have considered running a smaller diameter unit on the dyno to see how it effected the power curve in the engine. on the early car running through a 2.0 inch hole for a MAF to a 3.0 inch tube just seams wrong to me. The S14 really has to be rubbed on to get even close to weight but that's just racing and we all have to deal with it. I am not pushing to get the 240sx moved to ITA as I think it is truely a cr that has more than we have seen I am just not convinced it will be enough. We are continuing to try to find more. My deal is at the point that we are sure it is not a front runner I would likely request a move to ITA with a restrictor that would pull into that performance window.
 
I feel that running with well built Bimmers with good drivers it an unattainable goal, so the RX7 was my main target in building the car. The RX7 is 30lbs heavier and makes just under 180whp in most cases. Few would argue the RX7's competitiveness. 240sx is lighter, has similar drag numbers, similar weight distribution, similar CG, wheelbase and a better rear suspension design.
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It's the 180 whp that I'm worried about. I think the ITA cars are running something like 160's whp when fully built. We'd need to get almost 20 more HP out of the DE.

Anyone running a built DE motor want to comment on general HP potential of the motor (I know exact numbers are many times considered a secret)????

joe
 
I also own a S14 240sx ITS car and have had some success with it, I'd rather you guys leave it alone in ITS. I get beat at some places and contend for the win at others but the GCR doesn't guarantee your car to be competitive. I have no problem getting close to minimum weight either. I keep seeing these posts about the S14 not being competitive in ITS but I've only seen 3 in the country including mine that are racing. I finished 4th in the SAARC points this year and was on podium almost every race I entered. I can get spanked on the straights at Road Atlanta by most top e36's and RX'7s but run door to door or ahead of them at places like Roebling or Kershaw. Even the mighty e36 got beat at Daytona last year, considered a horsepower track, so each car will have tracks they favor and so will a driver. I don't see anyone contribute any factor of competitiveness to car prep, driver ability and experience, tires, etc.... Just leave the cars alone and race please. If you don't feel it's competitive then don't build one, it's as simple as that and the GCR warns you of that in the beginning. I feel very comfortable with my chances to be competitive when I arrive at a racetrack with my S14.
 
I also own a S14 240sx ITS car and have had some success with it, I'd rather you guys leave it alone in ITS. I get beat at some places and contend for the win at others but the GCR doesn't guarantee your car to be competitive. I have no problem getting close to minimum weight either. I keep seeing these posts about the S14 not being competitive in ITS but I've only seen 3 in the country including mine that are racing. I finished 4th in the SAARC points this year and was on podium almost every race I entered. I can get spanked on the straights at Road Atlanta by most top e36's and RX'7s but run door to door or ahead of them at places like Roebling or Kershaw. Even the mighty e36 got beat at Daytona last year, considered a horsepower track, so each car will have tracks they favor and so will a driver. I don't see anyone contribute any factor of competitiveness to car prep, driver ability and experience, tires, etc.... Just leave the cars alone and race please. If you don't feel it's competitive then don't build one, it's as simple as that and the GCR warns you of that in the beginning. I feel very comfortable with my chances to be competitive when I arrive at a racetrack with my S14.
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Hey CHris there is nobody trying get the car moved today. There is a nice discussion and idea sharing thing happening here. congrats on you limited sucess. I don't you should try to shut other down just cause you don't agree. While you may not see alot of them racing that sports car only lists the top 3 spots? Maybe there are more cars 3 rd and back.
 
Hey CHris there is nobody trying get the car moved today. There is a nice discussion and idea sharing thing happening here. congrats on you limited sucess. I don't you should try to shut other down just cause you don't agree. While you may not see alot of them racing that sports car only lists the top 3 spots? Maybe there are more cars 3 rd and back.
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Joe either you were drunk when you typed that or your fingers got smashed at the shop today...LOL. I know it's not today but I get irritated when these discussions get rolling fueled mostly by speculation about performance that is one dimensional speculation at that. The comment about 3 cars meant that I only know of three S14's in ITS in the country and they are mine, Darin and David Murphy. I know that you know what your talking about when I read your posts and it's from experience but alot of folks go throwing in their pennies and all of the sudden I have an over developed ITA car. I just can't see why people discuss moving a car that has not had it's fair share of development that's all...not trying to be hostile. Why in the world would I want to bolt on 250# AND a $350 restrictor AND then drop down a class? You guys asked for thoughts and there's mine, leave the car where it is and let's race.
 
Joe either you were drunk when you typed that or your fingers got smashed at the shop today...LOL. I know it's not today but I get irritated when these discussions get rolling fueled mostly by speculation about performance that is one dimensional speculation at that. The comment about 3 cars meant that I only know of three S14's in ITS in the country and they are mine, Darin and David Murphy. I know that you know what your talking about when I read your posts and it's from experience but alot of folks go throwing in their pennies and all of the sudden I have an over developed ITA car. I just can't see why people discuss moving a car that has not had it's fair share of development that's all...not trying to be hostile. Why in the world would I want to bolt on 250# AND a $350 restrictor AND then drop down a class? You guys asked for thoughts and there's mine, leave the car where it is and let's race.
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Not drunk just not proof read....lol Nobody said anything about adding 250lbs. I said without the restrictor that's what it would take to go to ITA. I would rather see the restrictor if it were to ever be moved. I have been contacted by a few other guys wanting to build these but the deal is at this point is they don't pencil. I am glad you feel your on the right path but until I can make the HP numbers I am not convinced.
 
And what type of bhp or whp would be needed for a well prepped, well driven DE to be able to shoot for the podium in a competitively prepared and driven ITS race group of BMWs, Mazdas and Acuras?
 
My estimates say 205 Crank HP at the current weight. ( cars cannot get lighter)will bring them into the current ITS window. I think I can get 195. The big issue for the S14 is the poor camshaft selection. While these are sporty cars they have a truck motor in them. Again I am not trying to move the car.
 
My estimates say 205 Crank HP at the current weight. ( cars cannot get lighter)will bring them into the current ITS window. I think I can get 195. The big issue for the S14 is the poor camshaft selection. While these are sporty cars they have a truck motor in them. Again I am not trying to move the car.
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Without getting into too much detail and stepping on any toes, I can tell you 205 crank HP in a S13 motor is very attainable in fully legal ITS trim.
One just needs to drop the money to the proper engine builder.
 
Without getting into too much detail and stepping on any toes, I can tell you 205 crank HP in a S13 motor is very attainable in fully legal ITS trim.
One just needs to drop the money to the proper engine builder.
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Well I hope that wasn't an indication that I am not a proper engine builder...:)

Evan you missed one: http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=193077

Now while Chris is knocking out the best effort I know of right now it looks like almost 2 secs off the fast car in those results? I hope you all are not telling me that's acceptable. I understand and am glad the adjustments are not track performanced based.
 
I agree...the 4 cyl guys are losing out not because of a HP defficiency, but torque... :dead_horse: and the DE motor is one of the best 4 cyl examples. we are not going anywhere unless the RX7 fattens up or the KA powered cars (and B series) get a diet :D wouldnt it be cool to see more than RX7's and BMW's at the front? the BMW may now be controlled but the RX7 will continue to open cans of whoop ass. The only other car I can think of that can hang is the 240z....with a full on spend lots of money every weekend effort...ITA had a complete makeover...why not ITS as well?
 
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