How does 7hp=220lbs??

In regards to Andy's post above, when I say "we" I mean the royal we as in all in the IT community. I am not on the ITAC and I don't speak for it. Just wanted to be clear about that.

James, I appreciate your posts and your thoughts, but in arguing for a weight reduction on the Z3, reference to the Miata is irrelevant. Show Andy/Jake/the ITAC that the process weight for the car is wrong and you might get somewhere.

Again, what's a nearly 20 ft lbs of torque advantage worth weight wise? You dodged that one.
[/b]

Jeff,

One point I think you're missing is not only am I looking for a weight break for the Z3, I'm looking for weight to be added to the Miata as well, as the classing was incorrectly performed and has proven to exceed it's performance estimate by a very large margin, with more than a 33% gain in hp and a 17% torque gain.

James
 
The Z3 in question has no programmable fuel system. It is not representative yet of a 'I have maxed out my power'. The Process is just an estimate. This IS IT and not Prod so the micro-managing of weights just isn't in the cards. [/b]


Wow, I missed a lot in 2 days. Sorry, I've been away from the topic.

Andy,

You know I respect you and your knowledge. But, PLEEEEAAASSE tell me how my programmable fuel system will do so much more than my AFPR to getting me 150ish hp let alone 160 ish to make 2600 look better.

It won't.

(Did you honestly think we'd overlook AFR????)

Just please someone admit the adders for the Z3 where based on the roundel on the hood, and I'll go away. :happy204: I could care less what James Clay at Bimmerworld says, he's NEVER built an ITA legal Z3. Besides there are much more knowledgeable shops out there. (sorry Mr Clay, but its truth)


Andy,

You don't know the level of prep of the car. Be careful. It dyno's at 135 on a Dpak. Period. Are you questioning Matt's talents....does Greg need the trophy brought over? :D

If you are so convinced that your right than how do you explain the e36 318is at 2600 also???? Will someone PLEASE, (PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP) address that question for me!!!!


Or we can stop arguing and just put the Z3 on the e36 318is spec line......vented rotors e36 rear set-up.

Oh and Jeff (Young)- I totally agree the Z3 has a torque advantage over the Miata, however, I think the 200ish pounds of fat completely mutes that arguement several times over. Nice try.



R
 
Hey Rob,

I've been thinking about how I could fit a Z-axle under the rear of my car, especially as Prepared allows us to dump the trailing arms, but the amount of effort and cutting out the trunk... Plus it wouldn't help you as I'm sure you're still not allowed to cut a big hole in your trunk to mount an alternate rear suspension.

Yeah, Mr Clay sure knows how to prep an e-46, but I bet he's never had his hands on any part of a M-44. You should have heard them laugh when I showed up at Laguna-Seca. "I guess Z3's are getting cheap now that there are two here!"

James
 
Oh, I KNOW how concrete the process isn't. I've been pretty intimately involved in the whole "formula" movement, going back 7-8 years now and have kept close track of how we got where we are.

That's why I worry so much.

I'm going to sound like I'm arguing two sides here but the primary issue to my mind is repeatability - an aspect of how reliable the system is. Whether it is RIGHT is a separate issue and frankly, I think that's less important, but multiple people on the ITAC running the car through the same process should get the "same" result.

The question then becomes what does "same" mean. That's where acceptable error comes into the equation and frankly, there's no way that we can expect closer than +/- 75#. So the difference between Darin's 2675 and someone else's 2600 is essentially no difference.

You've got no standing in the rules or processes in use to request a move to ITB at the same weight. The system just doesn't accommodate that. Or you CAN ask but the response is guaranteed.

Part of the reason I wrestle with the validity of using "known gains" is that we pretty much never know what we know. When you say, "...compaired to a car like the Z3 where we see 3/4 of the predicted hp gain and 3ft/lbs of torque, that's like less than a 2.5% increase" that carries exactly no weight to others, regardless of how confident YOU are in the figures. We chuck around percentages, Dynojets, other stuff - lap times - but unless someone can demonstrate their methodology, it's noise.' Andy says he got 108 whp with his SM. He might have all the confidence in the world about what that means but it doesn't mean diddly if we think critically about it.

Regardless, power is an OUTCOME or OUTPUT VARIABLE - a result of what we do, rather than something we control directly. You can't just "make horsepower:" if you figured out a way to do that, you'd be a rich man. :) We change things and expect power as an outcome. It's a first assumption of the IT ruleset that we try to control INPUTS - limiting what we are and are not allowed to do to the car - and that competitiveness and racing happen out of those affordances and constraints.

If we want to start down the path of making classing decisions based on outputs, the logical extreme is to skip straight to a bracket racing model, where we enter a laptime class and if you exceed your index, you break out.

K
 
Actually Rob, I would consider a 20 ft lb torque advantage to be pretty close to the equivalent to a fairly large amount of weight. Point is what I subjectively consider to be significant doesn't matter.

Neither one of you guys have asked Andy or Jake to explain the 2600 process weight for the Z3 was derived. Ask them for that, and if there is obvious error, point it out. Most of the rest of what you guys are arguing is, and I don't mean this with disrepect, irrelevant for what the ITAC is trying to accomplish.
 
Oh, I KNOW how concrete the process isn't. I've been pretty intimately involved in the whole "formula" movement, going back 7-8 years now and have kept close track of how we got where we are.

That's why I worry so much.

I'm going to sound like I'm arguing two sides here but the primary issue to my mind is repeatability - an aspect of how reliable the system is. Whether it is RIGHT is a separate issue and frankly, I think that's less important, but multiple people on the ITAC running the car through the same process should get the "same" result.

The question then becomes what does "same" mean. That's where acceptable error comes into the equation and frankly, there's no way that we can expect closer than +/- 75#. So the difference between Darin's 2675 and someone else's 2600 is essentially no difference.

You've got no standing in the rules or processes in use to request a move to ITB at the same weight. The system just doesn't accommodate that. Or you CAN ask but the response is guaranteed.

Part of the reason I wrestle with the validity of using "known gains" is that we pretty much never know what we know. When you say, "...compaired to a car like the Z3 where we see 3/4 of the predicted hp gain and 3ft/lbs of torque, that's like less than a 2.5% increase" that carries exactly no weight to others, regardless of how confident YOU are in the figures. We chuck around percentages, Dynojets, other stuff - lap times - but unless someone can demonstrate their methodology, it's noise.' Andy says he got 108 whp with his SM. He might have all the confidence in the world about what that means but it doesn't mean diddly if we think critically about it.

Regardless, power is an OUTCOME or OUTPUT VARIABLE - a result of what we do, rather than something we control directly. You can't just "make horsepower:" if you figured out a way to do that, you'd be a rich man. :) We change things and expect power as an outcome. It's a first assumption of the IT ruleset that we try to control INPUTS - limiting what we are and are not allowed to do to the car - and that competitiveness and racing happen out of those affordances and constraints.

If we want to start down the path of making classing decisions based on outputs, the logical extreme is to skip straight to a bracket racing model, where we enter a laptime class and if you exceed your index, you break out.

K
[/b]

If it is as you say Kirk, the Z3 is doomed to be a tweener never to have a win to it, ever to be relagated as an also-ran.... :bash_1_: because the process doesn't take into account the fact that different factories prepare their motors to different levels. As Rob and I have accerted from the very beginning, when BMW built the M-44 they didn't leave many stones unturned, so that building a race motor to IT spec just doesn't result in the same potential as the "formula" predicts, it's just not there! I'm not talking about just 50-75lbs, the Z3 should probably drop 150lbs to be on par with the rest of the field. In addition, the Miata being classed at the earlier cars 128hp neglected the fact that there's a lot more to be had out of it, so much more that just a year and a half latter they could up the hp by 5 easily. This coincides with SM having a weight preassigned to it that gets carried over to ITA. In this way the Miata actually by-passed the process and was classed at it weight way light and probably needs to add 150lbs. So in effect this is what should probably happen:

Z3 looses 150lbs -> 2450lbs

Miata gains 150lbs -> 2530lbs

James
 
Rob,

First off, your 135whp is a DynaPak number. This is one reason I am suggesting that we all hit the same dyno on the same day. People with many years of dyno experience have pegged DP numbers to be 10% lower than DJ numbers. That COULD bring your number to the 148+ range in apples to apples comparisons. Again we will never know until we all get together. When I told Kessler that I got to 140whp, he eyeballed me. I said DynoJet and he said that would have been mid to high 120's on a Pak.

As far as AFR, I guess your car is more optimized than many. One of the reasons the Miata's make 5 more hp with the OBD-II ECU is that they suffer from WAY to much fuel at high RPM. They don't benefit much from bolt ons, but from a tight AFR tune, they do. I would love to see your AFR plots with just adjusting the linear values an FPR can provide you. In order to fatten up a torque curve and see real USABLE gains, I truly believe a programmable unit is the way you need to go. I adjusted to optimum AFR EVERY 100 RPM from 4000rpm to 7500RPM. It was worth every minute. Maybe your car doesn't need it. Mine sure as heck did. The point about Bimmerworld is that he has experience with both BMW's and MoTec systems.

I am not questioning Matt's talents but when you make more ponies than me on the same dyno on the same day without PFI, you can expect an 'I told you so from me'. Remember how much lower Paks are supposed to read than Jets. Have Matt confirm that for you as well.

The 318is and the Z3 1.9 have the same motor. They both have the same front suspension and are RWD. The rear suspension difference was not significant enough to have the weight any different in the eyes of the ITAC at the time of classification. If you want to split those hairs, the daily grind of Production comp adjustments may be the place for you because it shouldn't happen in IT.

The Process can only get so granular. The problem with that is that some cars will be better than others even inside an attempt at equity. No way to fix that. The process numbers we apply for adders may be 'off' but I beleive they are close enough to foster more great choices in every class than ever. There are some cars I would NEVER build because I KNOW they couldn't cut the Mustard unless you continued to dumb them down using on-track performance, which we know will never happen in IT. Look at other cars with similar stock HP to yours in ITA, they are right there in terms of weight too. Thats the Process working to it's fullest - and admittably flawed capability.
 
Kirk,

I have much respect for you POV and admire your tenure. I do raise one minor counterpoint though. You said +/-75 means little. Sounds good to me. Z3 1.9 2525#. Done.

Jeff,

Maybe I was too subtle in my last post when I BEGGED the 2600# for the 318is explained to us. So I'll do it again. HOW IN THE ITAC'S "FORMULAIC PROCESS" ARE THE 318is AND THE 1.9 Z3 CONSIDERED TO BE THE SAME CAR. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE ADDERS USED FOR BOTH BECAUSE TO ANY CASUAL OBSERVER THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

Jeff,
I'll go one further....


WHAT CONSIDERATION WAS GIVEN TO THE e36 318is IN REGARDS TO AERO, BRAKES, AND REAR SUSPENSION.


Jeff,

even further.....


I'll answer.....

Those qualities weren't given consideration otherwise the cars would have very different weights relative to one another. The only "subjective" adders used were the propeller on the hood and the expected HP gain. If I am wrong PLEASE enlighten me.

The basis of my contention with these facts is precisely the HP gain, as it is not what was predicted.



R


Jeff,

I'll let Mr. Amy defend "our" engine builders reputation......


R
 
This coincides with SM having a weight preassigned to it that gets carried over to ITA. In this way the Miata actually by-passed the process and was classed at it weight way light and probably needs to add 150lbs.
[/b]

What they heck are you talking about? Please explain so I can help you understand.
 
ROB -- ASK THE ITAC TO EXPLAIN THE PROCESS TO YOU FOR THE 318IS AND THE Z3. THEY WILL DO IT. PLEASE ASK THEM. NOT ME.

ROB -- BEFORE WE GO "SLAMMING" YOUR ENGINE BUILDER, IS WHAT JAMES SAID CORRECT? YOU ONLY GOT A 2 FT. LBS TORQUE GAIN FROM AN IT BUILD? IS THAT TRUE? MY COMMENT WAS DIRECTED AT THE VERACITY OF JAMES' STATEMENT BECAUSE I THINK HE GOT HIS NUMBERS SCREWED UP.

Do you really believe that the Z3 got an adder because it is a BMW? If so, it's hopeless having a discussion with you. THat just means you not only don't trust the process, you don't trust the people who are operating it. If that is the case, then no discussion or explanation will ever satisfy you.

I'm off to work on my 133 STOCK HP ITS car. Have fun with your cars!
 
96_98318i.jpg


James, I don't have the time to explain to you all the things you don't know about racecars. But I will say this. If the Process is to be credible then every car that is classed or moved should be correctly run through it at the highest factory HP number available. On a reclassification that allows up date and back date the current HP numbers must be used as the baseline. I feel in the case of the Miata the process was cheated out of this. I also feel that the BMW is correctly classed based on Proven IT type gains and understanding the +'s and -'s of the car. You can claim the cars suspension sucks all day long but so does the 240sx in OE trim. The fact that one car has what he considers is a fully developed package does not make it so. I will say this. The system is being cheated by not being fairly applied to one car and that will cause the system to be questioned on every classification that is out there and not winning. WHile I don't agree that the Z3 is an underdog I also struggle to defend a system that I believe in so much and actually had a hand in developing and getting going back just a few years ago.
 
Kirk,

WHAT CONSIDERATION WAS GIVEN TO THE e36 318is IN REGARDS TO AERO, BRAKES, AND REAR SUSPENSION.

I'll answer.....

Those qualities weren't given consideration otherwise the cars would have very different weights relative to one another. The only "subjective" adders used were the propeller on the hood and the expected HP gain. If I am wrong PLEASE enlighten me.

R [/b]

Your right Rob. 'Adders' aren't looked at in a car to car scenario. They are looked at as a difference to the 'base' platform for the class. Significant differences get consideration. To the Process, and it's current granularity, the 1.9 Z3 and the 318is E36 are the same car. You know they are different but for us to assign weight numbers at that level is too much. Anything else would be a black hole into oblivion IMHO. I would think Kirk would agree.

And Rob can correct me if I am wrong but he could be comparing his current IT build to a full-prep SS build of unknown legality. I don't think he has any stock dyno sheets. I could be wrong and I know he will correct me. His comparisons would be like me comparing my motor to an unrestricted full blown SM motor - which are rumored to make ~ 125whp - about 15 more than stock.
 
Actually Rob, I would consider a 20 ft lb torque advantage to be pretty close to the equivalent to a fairly large amount of torque weight. Point is what I subjectively consider to be significant doesn't matter.

Neither one of you guys have asked Andy or Jake to explain the 2600 process weight for the Z3 was derived. Ask them for that, and if there is obvious error, point it out. Most of the rest of what you guys are arguing is, and I don't mean this with disrepect, irrelevant for what the ITAC is trying to accomplish.
[/b]

Actually Jeff,

I think Andy did give it on the last page....

When he mentioned the 240SX (2.4ltr engine) and the Integra (1835cc engine).

But the Nissan has a much larger engine that anything else, and the Miata actually has a larger engine that the Integra. The fact remains that the assumed gains are just that assumed, as long as the Z3 is classed as it is it will never be competitive, never.

Ever wonder why GRM always puts a supercharger on the 4 cylinder BMW's? It's because there's no other way for them to make any significant power gains without going to a full build, IT type mod's just don't cut it, lets face it the motors a slug.


James
 
Jeff,

With all do respect save it. My basis has nothing to do with fear mongering or distrust for the ITAC. The sky is not falling in my world.

I asked you (singular and plural) because of your vehement defensive that the car is classed properly, and the adders were applied properly.

You questioned the talents of the engine builder by saying "I'd be having a talk with my engine builder"....remember?

Yes the torque gain was minimal.

I have every desire to engage in meaningful debate. I am seeking enlightenment and knowledge. I also take the stance that I know more about my car than the ITAC does. I think we can all safely say that unless you drive what they drive. The position I take is not based on futility or hostility. It is based on the premise that if your going to take a stance pro or con on my car you'd better have done your homework. To this point I've seen few Deans' list arguements, except for most of James' points.

R
 
James, As I have stated many times before. The 240sx breaths through 1.75 intake hole in the MAF sensor. Should the MAF ever be a free part then the 240sx would need to move to ITS. The fact is that the 240sx was run through the exact process and gained weight and not one 240sx guy complained believing thatif the process was run equally across the board that they were getting a fair shake. Now it does not look like that is happening in all cases.
 
Guys, last post. Please ask Andy/Jake to lay out the actual process - which is a formula -- for you on how the weights for the 318 and the Z3 were reached. If you see an obvious error, point it out.

The rest of the "Dean's List" arguments are frankly irrelevant to classing a car in IT.
 
Joe,
Is it safe to assume that that's crank? (It is)

165 tq- 17% drive line loss (28 ft lbs) = 137.

That is almost exactly what I'm seeing. Am I missing your point?


R
 
At what point can we agree that there will be cars that just make better track cars than others? To what level of granularity do you want to go to try and make everything equal? We certainly go way further than ever before - too far for some actually.
 
Rob, I have no idea, go to their site and figure it out. my guess is chassis dyno since they are advertising reprograming values.
 
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