Lead and follow can be great, but you would need to make certain that you have a car capable of keeping up with your client while you are driving at less than 100%. If you can't keep up with the student when he/she is at 100% how much input could you provide? Having a FA car would significantly increase your expenses.
Is there and interest in race driver coachging?
- Thread starter racer14itc
- Start date
Lead and follow can be great, but you would need to make certain that you have a car capable of keeping up with your client while you are driving at less than 100%. If you can't keep up with the student when he/she is at 100% how much input could you provide? Having a FA car would significantly increase your expenses.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
So Tom, I guess that explains the knee problems eh?
I agree that the SCCA has to adress the part between street driving and racing. We really are losing entry level racers to the clubs that provide lower pressure instructional environments.
I like your ideas regarding the passing of knowledge. I could use some of your help!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
I agree that the SCCA has to adress the part between street driving and racing. We really are losing entry level racers to the clubs that provide lower pressure instructional environments.
I like your ideas regarding the passing of knowledge. I could use some of your help!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
T
Tom Blaney
Guest
Geeze Jake all you have to do is stay behind me really really close, but don't count on me waiting for you. Of coarse you can always sign up for coaching.
Fair enough Ray perhaps I mis-understood. But your right I do remember the racer/instructor tiff, I ended up going to ski patrol, that way we didn't have to buy drinks at the bar after closing, all the "victims" would buy for us
The knee is pretty good now and I have a green light to go skiing next season.
Now I just have to focus on winning the 12 hour at Summit ...
Fair enough Ray perhaps I mis-understood. But your right I do remember the racer/instructor tiff, I ended up going to ski patrol, that way we didn't have to buy drinks at the bar after closing, all the "victims" would buy for us
The knee is pretty good now and I have a green light to go skiing next season.
Now I just have to focus on winning the 12 hour at Summit ...
All you really need are some dedicated test days and an old GT2 car - that would probably make a good student chase/lead -mobile.
Seriously, there is a real need to do some mentoring/coaching. Coaching is somewhat misleading, as you will have to do some tuning on less preparred cars that most new racers have (unless you have purchased a dialed in racer). The hard part of getting started - is the car, and not really knowing how to set it up correctly. I have been there - dang thing won't turn, won't stop, flatspots in power, etc... Really hard to drive/race effectively - and the worst part is you don't know any difference...
Dang, I could go on and on and on.
For those of you in SEDIV, I am not racing this year (building a new house and shop) and can and will share some knowledge. Drop me a line - [email protected].
Best of luck, hang in there,
Jerry Lee
Seriously, there is a real need to do some mentoring/coaching. Coaching is somewhat misleading, as you will have to do some tuning on less preparred cars that most new racers have (unless you have purchased a dialed in racer). The hard part of getting started - is the car, and not really knowing how to set it up correctly. I have been there - dang thing won't turn, won't stop, flatspots in power, etc... Really hard to drive/race effectively - and the worst part is you don't know any difference...
Dang, I could go on and on and on.
For those of you in SEDIV, I am not racing this year (building a new house and shop) and can and will share some knowledge. Drop me a line - [email protected].
Best of luck, hang in there,
Jerry Lee
gran racing
Super Moderator
The mentor idea is great! There are many simple things that people take for granted on a race day. And it can be quite intimidating. I was very, very fortunate to have someone take the time to really help me with many of these aspects and get through the SCCA drivers school. Thanks again Jake! and Steve / Al. Little did Jake know that we would be so increadibly evenly matched - often qualify within .01 of a second. And of course the relationship works both ways.
Maybe you can have a broad focus - not just a one race weekend thing but be there as a mentor and help the person along. A lot also depends on the student and their willingness or ability to put money into the car. I bought a suspension that is not adjustable (leda did tune it for my specific car); one less things I can even think of playing with. Nice for a beginner. You know the saying, keep it simple...
You also need to keep in mind that the first few races people just need to get out there and finish safely. So the focus is much different than later in the season.
Everything in steps.
1 - intro to racing. Learning some of the things that are not taught in the race school.
2 - going faster. Teaching where the student can decrease their lap times. Focus on the driver. Maybe some minor tuning such as tire pressure, suggestion on very basic alignment (with out modifying the car more than it is - i.e. camber plates)
3 - car set-up. If the car is tuneable, how to tune it to the driver's preferences.
Have you looked at the regions that are near you? Ask for some stats on cars that enter schools. That will give you an idea on what types of cars to target. It would be a hard sell if you want to instruct open wheel students but have never actually driven an open wheel race car (and same with closed wheel race cars).
Maybe you can have a broad focus - not just a one race weekend thing but be there as a mentor and help the person along. A lot also depends on the student and their willingness or ability to put money into the car. I bought a suspension that is not adjustable (leda did tune it for my specific car); one less things I can even think of playing with. Nice for a beginner. You know the saying, keep it simple...
You also need to keep in mind that the first few races people just need to get out there and finish safely. So the focus is much different than later in the season.
Everything in steps.
1 - intro to racing. Learning some of the things that are not taught in the race school.
2 - going faster. Teaching where the student can decrease their lap times. Focus on the driver. Maybe some minor tuning such as tire pressure, suggestion on very basic alignment (with out modifying the car more than it is - i.e. camber plates)
3 - car set-up. If the car is tuneable, how to tune it to the driver's preferences.
Have you looked at the regions that are near you? Ask for some stats on cars that enter schools. That will give you an idea on what types of cars to target. It would be a hard sell if you want to instruct open wheel students but have never actually driven an open wheel race car (and same with closed wheel race cars).
Mark,
Ive chased you a few times at VIR and Summit (and I intend to catch you if you'll come back to ITC). But to the point - great ideas! SCCA schools do a good job (given their resources) generally introducing the sport and making it as safe as possible, but often individual instruction is wanting. I have done a little academic teaching and feel racing skills(philosophically I suggest it's often using the right instincts at the right time that's important) are sometimes more difficult to convey. Those of us with some skill (and I don't mean to exaggerate my own) need to pass it on. If I can help in any way, don't hesitate to ask.
G. Robert Jones
ITC 22
[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited March 09, 2004).]
Z
zracer22
Guest
Mark
I'm going to play devil's advocate. Your idea is a good one, but I can't see how it could happen. Costs, available track dates, and competing organizations are my reason for saying that.
"Coaching" is the word I use to describe NASA's HPDE experience. Someone that goes thru NASA's four HPDE levels and then onto comp school will have received dozens of hours of quality on track and class room coaching. HPDE is the heart of NASA.
If you really want to start your own race school business, why not look into starting a NASA chapter? There are several regions in the country still without NASA.
When I startd typing, I had no idea that this post would turn into a NASA commercial. But it sounds like your ideas are similar to NASA's HPDE program.
I'm going to play devil's advocate. Your idea is a good one, but I can't see how it could happen. Costs, available track dates, and competing organizations are my reason for saying that.
"Coaching" is the word I use to describe NASA's HPDE experience. Someone that goes thru NASA's four HPDE levels and then onto comp school will have received dozens of hours of quality on track and class room coaching. HPDE is the heart of NASA.
If you really want to start your own race school business, why not look into starting a NASA chapter? There are several regions in the country still without NASA.
When I startd typing, I had no idea that this post would turn into a NASA commercial. But it sounds like your ideas are similar to NASA's HPDE program.
racer14itc
New member
Starting my own race school business? Oh my god, no. You guys are way more ambitious than me!! I'm just thinking of showing up at a track with ONE customer during a race weekend and spending the entire weekend with them. I have NO interest in starting a racing school, there's way too much competition as you said. Too many headaches too.
I'm talking about offering my experience as a race driver, chassis engineer, car constructor, and teacher to help racers go faster on a one on one basis. More of a coach for the weekend. Crew chief on steroids sort of thing. If you go to a NASA HPDE, will NASA assign you someone who will take your tire temperatures as you come off the track, and then spend the next hour adjusting the camber, toe, swaybars, shocks, changing springs and setting corner weights on your car? Will NASA provide a data logger and laptop and then sit down with you and go over your session, lap by lap to show you where you were fast, slow, or inconsistent? How about read your sparkplugs for you?
That's what I have in mind as my business. I have knack for putting my hands on a racecar and making it and the driver fast, if the driver has the ability. Wish I did...
My webpage explains in more detail what I offer.
MC
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/scirocco14gp/_wsn/page3.html
[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited March 12, 2004).]
I'm talking about offering my experience as a race driver, chassis engineer, car constructor, and teacher to help racers go faster on a one on one basis. More of a coach for the weekend. Crew chief on steroids sort of thing. If you go to a NASA HPDE, will NASA assign you someone who will take your tire temperatures as you come off the track, and then spend the next hour adjusting the camber, toe, swaybars, shocks, changing springs and setting corner weights on your car? Will NASA provide a data logger and laptop and then sit down with you and go over your session, lap by lap to show you where you were fast, slow, or inconsistent? How about read your sparkplugs for you?
That's what I have in mind as my business. I have knack for putting my hands on a racecar and making it and the driver fast, if the driver has the ability. Wish I did...
My webpage explains in more detail what I offer.
MC
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/scirocco14gp/_wsn/page3.html
[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited March 12, 2004).]
This is something I was always surprised the SCCA didn't do. Luckily I found FATT and some other "clubs" that held track days and was able to learn a few things before going to an SCCA driver's "school".
I've approached people in the SCCA about starting track days/HPDEs but for whatever reason it seems either too difficult or time consuming.
I've also approached some small clubs about the possibility of having a group of SCCA instructors come and help with the newbies. I'm specifically thinking of clubs like the Corvair Club that holds a couple events per year at Pocono... Kind of like piggybacking on their event. I would assume they'd be willing to give free track time for the instructors. I would be more willing to go to the smaller clubs and even pay a bit more if I knew I was going to get top-notch instruction.
-dave
8)
I've approached people in the SCCA about starting track days/HPDEs but for whatever reason it seems either too difficult or time consuming.
I've also approached some small clubs about the possibility of having a group of SCCA instructors come and help with the newbies. I'm specifically thinking of clubs like the Corvair Club that holds a couple events per year at Pocono... Kind of like piggybacking on their event. I would assume they'd be willing to give free track time for the instructors. I would be more willing to go to the smaller clubs and even pay a bit more if I knew I was going to get top-notch instruction.
-dave
8)
m glassburner
New member
Due to liability i would think?
RSTPerformance
New member
SCCA did HPDE classes at Lime Rock however I think that the stringent SCCA guidlines (speed set at 85mph) made the event fail. Basically the HPDE events that I have seen have are less organized as a whole but that seems to work better with that "clientel."
I think that it is SCCA liability issues that get them into trouble with many "low key" type of events. Autocrosses is another place I see a huge difference. SCCA has tons of rules on how the track/course is layed out, while this is safer it is also restricting and more confusing sometimes for entry level racers.
I personanally like that SCCA is a goal for many racers in local clubs. I think that SCCA rules/guidlines makes it possible to have a more "professional" event.
I also think though that SCCA should still have a mentoring program for newbe racers in their first events... You learn more in those events than you do in the school... Sorta like school and the actuall work force.
Raymond
I think that it is SCCA liability issues that get them into trouble with many "low key" type of events. Autocrosses is another place I see a huge difference. SCCA has tons of rules on how the track/course is layed out, while this is safer it is also restricting and more confusing sometimes for entry level racers.
I personanally like that SCCA is a goal for many racers in local clubs. I think that SCCA rules/guidlines makes it possible to have a more "professional" event.
I also think though that SCCA should still have a mentoring program for newbe racers in their first events... You learn more in those events than you do in the school... Sorta like school and the actuall work force.
Raymond
racer14itc
New member
Update:
At VIR this weekend, I was hired to coach a G-production driver in his MGB. In March at VIR, he qualified for his race at a time of 2:54. It was his first SCCA race weekend ever, and the first race for his new (to him) MGB. During that weekend, I offered my services for free (I'm a sucker for new production car drivers!) and during the weekend we tuned on the car and driver and got down to a best lap time of 2:40 during the race.
This weekend, with some additional tuning on the car and driver, he dropped six more seconds from his previous best! In Saturday's race, he got down to 2:34. In Sunday's race, we were hoping for more but had a brake drag issue that was so bad that in impound THREE people could not push the car onto the scales. Even so, he did a 2:35 lap during the race even though the top speed on the straights was about 85 mph( about 15-20 mph slower than during Friday's qualifying).
Twenty seconds in two weekends. My client is absolutely convinced that doing this has advanced him about a year's worth of experience if he had done this on his own. He told me there was NO WAY he would have figured out the lines through the corners on his own in just two weekends, not to mention tuning the car to handle better.
For me, it was quite rewarding to see the rapid improvement and the smile on his face everytime we went over the laptimes each session.
Unfortunately, he won't be able to make the Kershaw Memorial Day weekend, so if anyone is interested in having a driver coach and chassis consultant during the weekend, I'd be interested in talking to you!
( I have lots of experience at Kershaw, been on the ITC pole there and even held the GP lap record there for a time. )
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments, I've incorporated a lot of the ideas and it's helped. I'm excited about the possibilities....
MC
------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp
At VIR this weekend, I was hired to coach a G-production driver in his MGB. In March at VIR, he qualified for his race at a time of 2:54. It was his first SCCA race weekend ever, and the first race for his new (to him) MGB. During that weekend, I offered my services for free (I'm a sucker for new production car drivers!) and during the weekend we tuned on the car and driver and got down to a best lap time of 2:40 during the race.
This weekend, with some additional tuning on the car and driver, he dropped six more seconds from his previous best! In Saturday's race, he got down to 2:34. In Sunday's race, we were hoping for more but had a brake drag issue that was so bad that in impound THREE people could not push the car onto the scales. Even so, he did a 2:35 lap during the race even though the top speed on the straights was about 85 mph( about 15-20 mph slower than during Friday's qualifying).
Twenty seconds in two weekends. My client is absolutely convinced that doing this has advanced him about a year's worth of experience if he had done this on his own. He told me there was NO WAY he would have figured out the lines through the corners on his own in just two weekends, not to mention tuning the car to handle better.
For me, it was quite rewarding to see the rapid improvement and the smile on his face everytime we went over the laptimes each session.
Unfortunately, he won't be able to make the Kershaw Memorial Day weekend, so if anyone is interested in having a driver coach and chassis consultant during the weekend, I'd be interested in talking to you!
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments, I've incorporated a lot of the ideas and it's helped. I'm excited about the possibilities....
MC
------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp
RSTPerformance
New member
Marc-
Glad to see your idea has had some success... Congrats, and thank you from all who will be raceing against better drivers.
Raymond
Glad to see your idea has had some success... Congrats, and thank you from all who will be raceing against better drivers.
Raymond
racer14itc
New member
Thanks, Kirk! Next time we're at VIR together, come find me during the lunchtime drivearounds and I'll be happy to ride shotgun and see if I can help you find that time. The first "rock" is free.
MC
------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp