ITC

But Greg, by your own admission, the price of ITA has grown leaps and bounds. So have all the classes. I built my car for a lot less than $8K. It's not as fast as Scott's, but it will get that way. The ARRC champ's car was in that price vicicnity, eventually. I built a car with the knowledge that it could go to the dump at the first race, but didn't plan on it. It's predecessor lasted a year and a half before it bought the wall. I sure won't say that my car is 5+ yrs old...time for a new one.
As for the price of race cars...I can remember when an AM car in Solo 2 was the most awesome price of $35K, or an SSA car was ruled too expensive for the class at $10K, and it was only a couple of years ago when a Spec Miata was advertised as buildable to run at the front for under $5K. Now you put $20K in with that.
It's true that if you put the entry numbers of SM in ITC then the price would go up, but that won't happen nor will it happen in any IT class. If it did, then the SCCA would have us running national so fast you wouldn't have time to right the check for the new parts.
 
I hate to step into this one but...I think the main difference is if people build them themselves or pay someone to do it for them. I was up in the top 5 at the ARRC (stupid mistake brought me back to 7th with 2 or 3 to go :bash_1_: ) and I was running my stock motor and stock final drive still...i dont have nearly 20k invested. With the same car and more experience and track time at RA (not my home track...driven 3 times in this configuration, twice old in the mid 90's) im sure the results would be better. I have since purchased said gear and OPM motor and still dont have 20k invested. Im sure if someone wanted to build it thru a shop they would spend way more than 20k to duplicate it but that is usually not what a newbie wants...unless they are rich and it doesnt matter. ANY racing is expensive and there is no comparison of SM to IT anything because they are spec cars...thats why people love them (me too building one now) and in IT cheaters are everywhere...with virtually no policing. Why go full effort in IT if someone is going to simply put cams and other illegal bits on and trump your expensive motor? The sport is what we make it...if we want more ITC cars make the class deeper with more cars and advertise entry level Speed Touring on nascarvision...and police cheaters...nuff said sorry for the rant.
 
Actually Greg, 5 years ago there WERE already ITA cars being built at around the $30000 range. Not very many of them, but the trend had started.
And as Evan mentioned, thats not *needed* to win if you do alot of the work yourself. You know this as well as any of us Greg.
So yeah, Had I paid Tom Fowler to build my car for me from the ground up, I'd have been riding around in the world's first $25000 ITC car. But... Nobody in ITC does that, and thats kind of the point I'm trying to make.

The difference in ITC is the "Why you are racing here in the first place" thought process I'm trying to bring forward.

So see, one doesn't get into ITC to get into a spending war. One gets into ITC for the express purpose of AVOIDING said war.
Therefore, its highly unlikely that this war will ever start. People with $30000 to burn simply don't build carbed '86 CRXen as their race chariot. I don't expect this will ever change.
 
BTW - Are you ignoring me Evan or do you never check your PMs?

I'm typically only ignored by young women, so this kind of hurts :(
 
Scott, same for you, I've written you PM's with no response. If so, I'll see that your portions of gumbo and jambalaya are severely cut next yr. :023:
 
So, what we're saying here is that one of the prices associated with ITC is it's relative slowness.

A truth can therefore be given: All other things being equal, it is financially more expensive to race in faster classes.

SM could be an exception, except it fails the "all things equal" test, by promising "built in fairness" that some see missing in the IT formula.
 
I'll chime in with a perspective from someone who's run both ITC and ITA in the past couple of years with success in each.

My Dad and I have run ITC for 6 years now in two different cars (I ran in ITC until 2004). The first car we bought already built, began learning, and won a CenDiv Championship in. After three years with that car, we completely built our second ITC car ourselves after we felt like we had enough knowledge to do it well. We had good success with it (two more championships) and I know the amount of money we have into it - it's about 3/4 of what's into my current ITA car. It also most definately uses less tires, less brakes, less gas, less axles, etc compared to the ITA car. I also never had to send shocks off to be shortened and revalved or put the money into a trick header for the ITC car - it just wasn't necesasary.

Two years ago, I made the switch to ITA. I bought a '92 Integra RS for $1200 (actually less than what I bought the donor chassis for my ITC car was) that had light front damage ($50 in parts to fix). Again, my Dad and I made the rollcage, built the engine, did the body work, painted the car, and just did everything and anything ourselves. The car currently has won the ITA CenDiv Championship, has several track records, and has finished 7th ('04) and 3rd ('05) at the ARRC. I can pretty much guarantee you that there were other cars on the ITA grid at the ARRC this year with 2.5-3 times the amount of money I have into my car. I guess my point is that it is still possible to have success in ITA with a "cheaper" car.


In regards to ITC popularity:
I really enjoyed racing in ITC (and still do) but there were two factors that drove me out of it: the lack of participation and the lack of great drivers. At Mid Ohio we might get a field of 8 ITC cars and only maybe 3 or 4 were capable of running under a 1:52.0 (the record is a 1:49.3). If you venture away from Mid Ohio, don't be surprised if you're one of only 2 or 3 ITC cars. Also, I kind of hate to say it, but with the ITC cars that would show up, many of them were being driven by guys who I just didn't feel safe driving with. I hate doing body work. Then came along being grouped with SM where I was running with the bottom 1/3 of the SM field (yikes!). That was the end of that.

So I moved to ITA where I can consistently run with 25+ car fields that have a unbelievably high competition level. The ability of the drivers is also incredible and you're faster than the SM's if you're ever classed with them. The initial build cost of my ITA car and the last ITC car we built was really only about $3,000 more. The car uses up slightly more consumables but with just how much I love running ITA, it was worth it. Some contingency/sponsorships helped pretty much eliminate that difference anyways. I've ran two years on my car, probably close to 40 races, and I've had to replace one door skin - that's it. I ran two races in that time in an ITC car and it needed a new hood, front bumper, both front fenders, and major body work to the back right (did I mention that running with SM's in an ITC car sucks?).
 
Kevin,
Shame on you! You were trying to get me to drive almost 24 hrs to race on one of the best tracks in the US for a class of 3 or 4 ITC cars? I still might do it, but don't watch the entry forms for a while. I can drive 6 hrs and have that many cars in my class driven by "safe" drivers. lol
As for your body damage, some people have only bad luck. My best friend took my car (he built most of it) to his first driver's school and had a VW slam him off the track in a banzai pass during the early morning lapping sessions! Since then, the only significant damage to my car came this summer when the driver (whoops, that's me) forgot to put the hood pins back in and had the hood attempt a 180 on the pace lap.
I will agree that the most dangerous thing to do on a race track is to be in the last third of the SM's. Some of the better ITC drivers can run in mid pack with them where the driver's are more aware of other people on the track. I'm back there with the lunatics that hate being beaten by ITC cars and will do anything to get you out of their way.
I used to co-drive an older Si that was no way competitive with the newer CRX's, but was fast enough to get away from the crazies. I co-drove with Evan last yr. in the ARRC enduro...first time on the track and first time in a brand new car. I let my ego overload my a**hole! That said, I almost reached nirvana on the back straight! I'd love to be able to drive a car like that the way it should be driven, but I can't. I could run B, but C is where I am.
I've driven faster cars well in the past...Atlantics when they were FB's, Fords when they only came in formulas, and D prod when a Datsun 2000 still screamed. But I like running slower classes, because I have to drive the car. It's frustratingly slow, but the technique used to make one go fast is where the driver has to make up for the inadequacies of the motor. That's where the challenge is.
The reason I changed divisions was to go where the competition was. The tow is ridiculous, but classes of 8 to 10 or more cars is so much more fun. I know ITA has zillions of competitors, and I know the technology and parts are there, but I'm not.
If I can bear the humiliation of having a gas station bumpkin at Ma & Paw's roadside gas station, barbeque, and massage parlor tell me that my car's no race car, it's a station wagon, then I can live with it's short comings.
 
Sorry Chris, I can't find a PM from you that I didn't answer (I keep them all, I'm anal like that).
I have to make sure I stay on the good side of the Gumbo pot. B)

All other things being equal, it is financially more expensive to race in faster classes.


Absofreakinlutely.

Its a coolness cost in the slower classes. Your car is likely at least 15 years old (usually more than 20) and it just doesn't attract the attention that a 1995 Integra or BMW grabs, regardless of the paint job.

Hey Kevin, the SEDIV moved ITC from the SM group in the middle of this year and the ITC numbers immediately doubled.
Go figure.
:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by charrbq+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(charrbq)</div>
Kevin,
Shame on you!  You were trying to get me to drive almost 24 hrs to race on one of the best tracks in the US for a class of 3 or 4 ITC cars?[/b]
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hahaha - uhhhhh, I mean....

At Mid Ohio we're pretty much guaranteed to get at least 8 cars. Sometimes though we'll still see up to 12-15 ITC cars there but I've seen no way to make that happen consistently. I think it really does have something to do if ITC is put with SM though.

<!--QuoteBegin-Catch22
Hey Kevin, the SEDIV moved ITC from the SM group in the middle of this year and the ITC numbers immediately doubled.
Go figure.
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Yea, I remember you talking about that and I honestly believe the CenDiv would see more IT cars in general if SM was given their own run group - especially in ITC.
 
I hope to see what we all feel will be the second coming of ITC with the removal of SM from the race groups. At the 6 hr enduro two weeks ago at Texas World Speedway, out of nearly 60 entries, only six cars weren't SRF, SRX7, or SM. I love the race, but I hate racing it. The problem still exists in the ECR series...another race I love. I have never had a problem with running with ITS or ITE in any other series. I have mirrors and know how to use them. They know I'm slow, and I know they're fast. The SM drivers normally don't care. I even had one punt me when my car didn't accelerate as fast as they did. The driver lost as I had a rub on my bumper, and he buckled his hood!
ITC will never be as large as it used to be, but neither will a lot of other classes. It still has a large following and is the desired home for many drivers. I only wish that they had never made a Honda with a carberator!
 
I know this topic is dead.But i think the biggest reason itc is falling is that the youger people comming into itc were being ran out just as fast.At least thats what happened to us about 12 years ago.5 young,tallented, hard working,worked on the cars every weekend racers were ran out of itc by the "old" guys of the sport.Everyone knows them...the guys that haven't freshened up there motor in 2-3years,buy one set of tires for the year..and wanted to protest you every weekend you'd show up.

Thats why i left 12 years ago.....But now i'm back,and i hope to have more fun now than i did back then.
 
Originally posted by flaboy@Dec 28 2005, 09:34 PM
I know this topic is dead.But i think the biggest reason itc is falling is that the youger people comming into itc were being ran out just as fast.At least thats what happened to us about 12 years ago.5 young,tallented, hard working,worked on the cars every weekend racers were ran out of itc by the "old" guys of the sport.Everyone knows them...the guys that haven't freshened up there motor in 2-3years,buy one set of tires for the year..and wanted to protest you every weekend you'd show up.

Thats why i left 12 years ago.....But now i'm back,and i hope to have more fun now than i did back then.
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In my mind, getting protested is a badge of honor - IF YOU ARE LEGAL. When it all comes out in the wash, and you are legal, they look less-than respectable. I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB
 
flaboy,
Glad you're back. Sorry about the A-holes that you had to deal with before. Don't worry, they're in every class of every type of racing. Just like a bad smell, you have to live with them and get used to it. I know the type..."He can't be legal, 'cause I am totally legal, and he beat me." I've heard it before and can give you names. Ironically, those guys are usually so lazy that they don't prepare their cars to win, or they're really cheatin' somewhere and blowin' smoke so they won't look at him. Since you're in Florida, I hope to race with you this year. First one for me will be the ECR at Daytona in May. Good luck! :023:
 
I agree...If someone protests me I am always comfy in knowing my car is legal...let them spend the money to tear you down to see a stock OE motor!! haha joke on them. Protests can be annoying when they are done without knowledge...just because you are fast. I dont think I have seen many protests for car infractions lately (except for the SIC) in FL...just listen to many of the cars down here and you can probably find a few with stuff that shouldnt be in there...people get complacent and let things go...i would like to see an impound surprise sometime soon where they check lots of stuff...
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 12:13 AM
In my mind, getting protested is a badge of honor - IF YOU ARE LEGAL.  When it all comes out in the wash, and you are legal, they look less-than respectable.  I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB
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Andy pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you're legal, let them write the paper and pay the money. IMHO, it looks bad if you leave and don't come back. Casts doubt on the legallity of the car. Someone was talking to me about a guy that was very fast, w/ a car that is known not to be a front runner (the car in general, not this guy's car). He ran w/in about a second of the lap record, his first time at the track w/ the car. Mind you, the class 'regulars' are pretty numerous, and have been running this track for quite some time. They told him that if he came back, he could expect to get torn down. He never went back. Given that the car is known to not be a front runner, that the driver ran so quick his first time at the track, and the fact that he didn't go back, IMHO would call into question the legallity of the car.

You'd be surprised at how much respect that you'll get from folks that you just flat out out-drive and out-prepare. You'll get no respect from anyone if your a cheater.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 29 2005, 09:34 AM
  He ran w/in about a second of the lap record, his first time at the track w/ the car.  Mind you, the class 'regulars' are pretty numerous, and have been running this track for quite some time.  They told him that if he came back, he could expect to get torn down.  He never went back.  Given that the car is known to not be a front runner, that the driver ran so quick his first time at the track, and the fact that he didn't go back, IMHO would call into question the legallity of the car.

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Bill, the only issue I have with this is the regulars drove out a new person. Sometimes a polite eduction is the way to go and if it continues then you get out the check book. The otherthing to consider is sometimes people are just that good even in marginal stuff. I always get a chuckle out of those that think they own a track and can't handle finding out there are people out there that are actually better drivers. I have seen kids jump from a Kart to a POS IT car and make it fly in a short period of time. The key to these things is educate the newbies on how to prep an IT car. Alot of them don't understand the basis for some of the rules we have.
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 04:13 AM
I would never protest anyone unless I KNEW what was illegal.

AB
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So...being sort of new to the table. How does one protest without being a snitch or blackballed. I've run mid pack IT all season and noticed some poor (cheating) behavior by some of our (NER) "respected" drivers. I have the tape to prove it. I've seen a strong front runner passing 2 cars (I was one) after blowing past 3 yellow flags because he started at the rear (because he didn't want to qualify in the rain(boo hoo)) and knew the only "racing" was at the front.
I've been "stuck" behind front running guys who on their "march to the front" have perfumed me with exhaust gasses that immediately made my eyes water.
Then there's Mr. Holmes.....

In my experience the protest thing is sort of a taboo....It offends me deeply to try to run with integrity and respect and watch blatant stuff going on around me. I know I should be the one to write the paper but, If the veterans won't police themselves it seems like a sure fire way to be ostracised as a racer new to the class.

(... :D and no this is not washerbottle stuff :D :D )
 
Joe,

I absolutely understand where you're comming from. And it probably wouldn't have raised as many eyebrows if it had been a different car. There have been quite a few people that have run that particular car, at that particular track, over the years. Some of which are some pretty good shoes, that can wheel a car pretty well. None of them have run this fast in that car.

Also, I just checked the results at that track, for the past 5 years. There have only been a handful of fast laps under this guy's fast lap, and they were spread between 3 or 4 drivers. Nobody's been w/in .7 seconds of the lap record, during that time. This guy ran w/in 1.1 or 1.2 seconds of that same record. Doesn't add up Joe. The track is fast, and it takes some laps before you can squeeze all the speed out of it. Someone that is that good, to be able to do it their first weekend, in and underdog car, is not going to be running Regional IT races.

If there's that much in a legal version of that car, I'd love to see it. Would certainly fly in the face of what several people think. BTW, it's my understanding, that it was a new car as well, maybe its 4th or 5th race.
 
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