ITR Class Poll

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe@Dec 8 2005, 02:47 PM
Darin, the concept is interesting, but every application I have seen these used on has wide open engine prep rules. With our restrictive head, intake and cam rules I'm not sure we would end up with the parity you would expect. For example if torque is not effected up to the stall point of the SIR then a rotary will still be at a disadvantage to a inline 6 with the SIR to weight ratio. And because area under the curve is more important that peak power I think you will still see people spending money to get everything out of the motor they can at engine speeds below the effect of the SIR.

SIR's are worth looking into but no work has been done to determine if production level rules, much less IT rules will affect how well a SIR will work. It's a little premature to think there isn't some quirk out there that we have to plan for. Now, who wants to do some testing?

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Matt your kidding right? IMSA,CART,BTCC blah,blah.....This technology has been around for a way long time. Sure getting everything under the curve would be important that's racing. But limiting HP to a know quantity sure makings using somall amounts of weight more effective. If I here the rotary torque argument again I will prolly puke. What they don't make in torque they make a up in RPM and gearing. How many other IT cars can run gears in the 5:** range.

Http://www.raetech.com Go information on SIR's and how they work.

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Dec 8 2005, 09:56 PM
NOW, back to the topic at hand...  If the cars fit the current IT structure, but need room at the top (i.e.: an ITR class), then that's fine... 

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Darin,

... Thank You ...

Joe,

.... We are not talking about a National Class here.
.... And you are right about the T2 race at the Run Offs.... Best one of the event.

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 8 2005, 03:32 PM
Darin,

... Thank You ...

Joe,

.... We are not talking about a National Class here.
.... And you are right about the T2 race at the Run Offs.... Best one of the event.

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We are talking about a National class here cause all I have been reading is how we need a place for these National cars. I gotta tell ya. They are national cause they cost lots of money and the factory and tire folks want to play there. I have read a lot of false information here. The idea that you will see any serious numbers from BMWCCA or PCA is just blowing smoke up people's skirts. Most all of those folks race for a different pleasure that does not include knocking mirrors off each other. Again if a class is needed I agree that it should be formed.

 

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 8 2005, 05:00 PM
Matt your kidding right? IMSA,CART,BTCC blah,blah.....This technology has been around for a way long time. Sure getting everything under the curve would be important that's racing. But limiting HP to a know quantity sure makings using somall amounts of weight more effective. If I here the rotary torque argument again I will prolly puke. What they don't make in torque they make a up in RPM and gearing.  How many other IT cars can run gears in the 5:** range.

Http://www.raetech.com  Go information on SIR's and how they work.

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IMSA, CART, BTCC, Blah, blah .... ALL are allowed way more in the way of engine modifications than a stock intake, stock head, sotck cam. In most cases those purpose built engine have been optimized SPECIFICALLY to maximize power using the SIR. Personally I don't care if the rotary torque argument makes you sick. Maybe you prefer a comparison between inline 6 and V6, variable valve timing vs conventional? Either way that is still never been an issue addressed by CART, IMSA or most of the other series. I would love to see some data from touring cars, that's at least close. But the fact remains that WE need testing within IT prep rules before anything can be done. Otherwise we are more than likely to end up with some unintended consequences.

The other point about power band is that no matter what you try with SIR's, people with money will still spend it on engine development to maximize the power band. So SIR's may be able to improve parity but they aren't going to magically keep people from spending money to gain every little advantage. And once power output is equalized, minor driveability and power band differneces are even more evident.

Jeez Joe, lighten up and read I'm all for more work being done on how they apply to IT. I just won't blindly accept that they are a magic device with no potential downside. Oh, and while I don't know everything I have worked with and designed to them before. If it was that easy we wouldn't consistently have been better in power output than most of the field. It's amazing what you can do when you control plenum size, runner length, port shape, etc.

 

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 8 2005, 10:46 PM
We are talking about a National class here cause all I have been reading is how we need a place for these National cars. I gotta tell ya. They are national cause they cost lots of money and the factory and tire folks want to play there. I have read a lot of false information here. The idea that you will see any serious numbers from BMWCCA or PCA is just blowing smoke up people's skirts. Most all of those folks race for a different pleasure that does not include knocking mirrors off each other. Again if a class is needed I agree that it should be formed.

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Joe we have, for close to five pages on this thread and more pages on the other ITR thread, been discussing a REGIONAL IT class. Not a National Class. Simply because there are some T2 and T3 cars that would fit nicely in IT does not mean this class is national.

In fact, really, it is simply coincidence that some of the proposed ITR cars, such as a S2000 or 350z possibly, are T cars. If T didn't exist it wouldn't make any difference, we'd still need a class above S to class some cars, some of which happen to be things like six cylinder Z3s and S2000s, into IT because they fit nicely there.

It could be that in your area your local PCA and BMWCCA drivers would not try IT. But, where I live, they do it already and I know of drivers who regularly do it. Obviously it would be impossible to predict how many or which ones, but it makes no difference. There is enough interest from within the IT ranks to make the class viable. They'd just be icing on the cake with respect to SCCA membership and racing.

Ron

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 8 2005, 05:00 PM
Joe we have, for close to five pages on this thread and more pages on the other ITR thread, been discussing a REGIONAL IT class. Not a National Class.  Simply because there are some T2 and T3 cars that would fit nicely in IT does not mean this class is national.

In fact, really, it is simply coincidence that some of the proposed ITR cars, such as a S2000 or 350z possibly, are T cars.  If T didn't exist it wouldn't make any difference, we'd still need a class above S to class some cars, some of which happen to be things like six cylinder Z3s and S2000s, into IT because they fit nicely there.

It could be that in your area your local PCA and BMWCCA drivers would not try IT.  But, where I live, they do it already and I know of drivers who regularly do it. Obviously it would be impossible to predict how many or which ones, but it makes no difference. There is enough interest from within the IT ranks to make the class viable.

Ron

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Ron can you point me to those participation numbers somewhere? I look at NC region results and didn't see them and ECR or SARRC don't show anything that jumps out.
Am I looking in the wrong place?

 

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 12:25 AM
Ron can you point me to those participation numbers somewhere? I look at NC region results and didn't see them and ECR or SARRC don't show anything that jumps out.
Am I looking in the wrong place?

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Don't know where you are looking. You'd have to know the people to know if they are in the BMWCCA and SCCA, there isn't anything on the sites that says SCCA/BMWCCA member.

However, working from memory Marshall Lytle is one that recently ran in ITS here in the SE that I briefly met and there was one or two others as well, I want to say Wayne Burstein and John Coots. Not bad from a field of 13 cars to have three BMWCCA folks in there. I was unfortunately (shouldn't say that, at least I got some seat time!) racing SM most of last year since my ITS car was not complete/down. Actually, John Coots might be a NE racer only, might be confusing with Jerald Campbell who is a BMWCCA driver I think. There are some 944 cup cars that run NASA and IT, I'll find out.

I'd imagine having something open they could come to would draw a good number of them since there aren't that many BMWCCA and PCA races, or not as many as SCCA. It is sort of bad that the racing is diluted over three organizations, but I am sure there are some racers in there that don't want to have anything to do with the SCCA and possible contact. Plus, some others that probably feel they like racing their own kind instead of multiple types of cars. Wouldn't want the fabled BMW marquee soiled by a Mazda! Wait, that doesn't happen in ITS anyhow.......

Ron

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 8 2005, 05:47 PM
Don't know where you are looking. You'd have to know the people to know if they are in the BMWCCA and SCCA, there isn't anything on the sites that says SCCA/BMWCCA member. 

However, working from memory Marshall Lytle is one that recently ran in ITS here in the SE that I briefly met and there was one or two others as well, I want to say Wayne Burstein and John Coots. Not bad from a field of 13 cars to have three BMWCCA folks in there. I was unfortunately (shouldn't say that, at least I got some seat time!) racing SM most of last year since my ITS car was not complete/down. Actually, John Coots might be a NE racer only, might be confusing with Jerald Campbell who is a BMWCCA driver I think.  There are some 944 cup cars that run NASA and IT, I'll find out.

I'd imagine having something open they could come to would draw a good number of them since there aren't that many BMWCCA and PCA races, or not as many as SCCA. It is sort of bad that the racing is diluted over three organizations, but I am sure there are some racers in there that don't want to have anything to do with the SCCA and possible contact. Plus, some others that probably feel they like racing their own kind instead of multiple types of cars. Wouldn't want the fabled BMW marquee soiled by a Mazda! Wait, that doesn't happen in ITS anyhow.......

Ron

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Well Ron, Come on man. It is not rocket science for me to figure a PCA guy would be driving a Porsche and a BMWCCA guy would be driving a bimmer. I do not find any results that show a Porsche or a BMW listed in an ITE or some other class like that. I do find a lot of results from your region and your division on the web. It would seem that they must be incomplete cause I don't find several of the experts on this sight having much in the way of races. Now before everyone rus to check my results I took most of this year off but I was at a race track at least 15 race weekends plus a month at the runoffs I do have a few years under my belt.

Rick what do you have for a T2 car?

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Who is in?

 

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 01:14 AM
Well Ron, Come on man. It is not rocket science for me to figure a PCA guy would be driving a Porsche and a BMWCCA guy would be driving a bimmer. I do not find any results that show a Porsche or a BMW listed in an ITE or some other class like that. I do find a lot of results from your region and your division on the web.
Rick what do you have for a T2 car?

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I'm uncertain as to what you mean. I've listed some drivers for whom I'm under the impression are BMWCCA drivers who drove their BMWCCA BMW 3 series cars in ITS at our SAARC MARS challenge and other races. It was written up in the Regional BMW Club magazine as well indicating the drivers liked it and placed well against the "SCCA Big Dogs" as it was put by the writer. Not sure what else you wish from me, contact them yourself if you would like to ask them if they'll build an ITR car.

Besides, what difference does it make to this entire thread of should there or do we want an ITR class? I think I'll concentrate on fleshing out the spreadsheet and collecting data for that part of it and writing the proposal. It appears all the useful information was obtained regarding ITR within the first three pages of the original ITR thread. The rest has been mainly you attempting to be fairly argumentive toward most of the posters on the thread over ITR or any other side discussion that starts - like BMWCCA or PCA drivers possibly driving in IT.

Maybe you have a proposal or an idea in mind on how to class new cars in IT that have performance capabilities above S cars? All I (and some others) wish to do is drive some 5-12 year old sports cars in IT. How is that much different than when IT started way back in the 80s with then seven year old cars? It just so happens that modern cars that are 5-12 years old have a hell of a lot more performance than cars "back in the day", but certainly they can be accomidated for (those pesky AWD/turbo cars are a problem with possibly no IT solution). If you've got a proposal then I wouldn't mind hearing it, maybe trying to help out with working on it.

Ron

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 8 2005, 06:32 PM
I'm uncertain as to what you mean. I've listed some drivers for whom I'm under the impression are BMWCCA drivers who drove their BMWCCA BMW 3 series cars in ITS at our SAARC MARS challenge and other races. It was written up in the Regional BMW Club magazine as well indicating the drivers liked it and placed well against the "SCCA Big Dogs" as it was put by the writer. Not sure what else you wish from me, contact them yourself if you would like to ask them if they'll build an ITR car.

Besides, what difference does it make to this entire thread of should there or do we want an ITR class? I think I'll concentrate on fleshing out the spreadsheet and collecting data for that part of it and writing the proposal. It appears all the useful information was obtained regarding ITR within the first three pages of the original ITR thread. The rest has been mainly you attempting to be fairly argumentive toward most of the posters on the thread over ITR or any other side discussion that starts - like BMWCCA or PCA drivers possibly driving in IT.

Maybe you have a proposal or an idea in mind on how to class new cars in IT that have performance capabilities above S cars? All I (and some others) wish to do is drive some 5-12 year old sports cars in IT.  How is that much different than when IT started way back in the 80s with then seven year old cars?  It just so happens that modern cars that are 5-12 years old have a hell of a lot more performance than cars "back in the day", but certainly they can be accomidated for (those pesky AWD/turbo cars are a problem with possibly no IT solution).  If you've got a proposal then I wouldn't mind hearing it, maybe trying to help out with working on it. 

Ron

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Believe me Ron you have seen and will see more of my proposal than you know over the next 5 years. What gets me is when people say things as fact and have no data to back up those facts.What happens is a false need is created by false facts. Then when it comes time to deliver nobody home. You end up with a class that isn't gonna field cars. The question I asked was will people actually build them. What is the 5 to 12 year old car you wish to race.

Nice car Andy 3200lbs with driver 245HP on its best day where does that fit? I am thinking that's a click below the current E36.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 8 2005, 07:41 PM


Nice car Andy 3200lbs with driver 245HP on its best day where does that fit? I am thinking that's a click below the current E36.

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Are you saying this car can only gain 23hp over stock with 3L of V6 and all the IT mods?

I would think between 265 and 275 would be possible...

AB

 

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 01:41 AM
. What is the 5 to 12 year old car you wish to race.

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Oh, let's see. Quick and short list without thinking hard:

E36 M3
Porsche 968
S2000s (gotta wait a year)
80s 911s
300z
Supra NA

And there are many more.

Ron

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 01:14 AM
Rick what do you have for a T2 car?

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Joe,

... I have a 98 BMW Z3. I ran only one SCCA event with this season, a Rally. I now have it torn apart and am installing a new clutch.

... I also ran 17 IT7 races plus the ARRC, 10 races in SM, 7 ECR races as Co-Driver, 1Pro IT , and ran the 13hr @VIR with only 1 Co-Driver

... One point I would like to make. I feel safer racing my IT7 car than any of the other cars because of the added safety features allowed in IT, and I have them all and then some. I even put inertia switches on my fuel pumps.

... That is why I would like to see this class happen. The level of prep is more "Race" oriented than Touring. I guess that is where "Improved Touring" comes from.

... Thus: IT... Race/Ready

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 8 2005, 06:50 PM
Are you saying this car can only gain 23hp over stock with 3L of V6 and all the IT mods?

I would think between 265 and 275 would be possible...

AB

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No Andy, I was not stating that and you know me well enough to know that I could give you exect numbers on that package. If you limit that car to 245hp where does it fit?


Rick, There were some many Z3's built for T2 I had forgotten it was even classed. So you represented how crappy the touring rules from driving a T2 car in a rally once...WOW that's a big leap. Lets say this. The Touring rules allow all the safety stuff of IT including a passanger side crash protecion and window removal....(which BTW is how it got sole for IT) again a big leap from actual facts.


So ron what your saying is you have not formulated a plan for a car you would build this is still just a concept.

Andy i have Emailed the guy with the 300 to see about a buyit now price. I may just go pick it up just in case it ever does get to ITS..

 

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 02:23 AM
So ron what your saying is you have not formulated a plan for a car you would build this is still just a concept.

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Oh no! I have a plan and stated car, you'll need to simply look back through the threads. These are just other cars in ITR and interesting cars, the one I'm thinking about isn't listed.. No, I have a plan. We're up to 28 cars on the spreadsheet now and I think a few more a certainly possible - with NO overlap with ITS at the moment. It could get larger if some "problem childs" are choosen to be extracted from S into R.

Oh yeah, for the front drivers:

Taurus SHO - this would be a really cool one, sweet motor
Integra RSX-R


Ron

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 02:23 AM
Rick, There were some many Z3's built for T2 I had forgotten it was even classed. So you represented how crappy the touring rules from driving a T2 car in a rally once...WOW that's a big leap. Lets say this. The Touring rules allow all the safety stuff of IT including a passanger side crash protecion and window removal.

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Joe
.
.....So now you are trying to insult me. Good thing I consider the source. I have had harsher things said by better folks (that can spell).

..... Don't forget to add that in Touring you have to keep the passenger seat, carpet and all that flammable stuff. My car is classed so poorly that the sway bar that is on the spec line for my car is not even available nor made.

..... Must be Snowing ...... LOL

 

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 8 2005, 07:48 PM
Joe
.
.....So now you are trying to insult me. Good thing I consider the source. I have had harsher things said by better folks (that can spell).

..... Don't forget to add that in Touring you have to keep the passenger seat, carpet and all that flammable stuff. My car is classed so poorly that the sway bar that is on the spec line for my car is not even available nor made.

..... Must be Snowing ...... LOL

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If I was worried about spelling I would just not even bother. Insult you No, Point out that your argument is not from any real facts. Yep...

So you got me I spell like a 3rd grader big deal. I have tried not to be insulting and sometimes typing just makes it sound that way in your own head. Maybe there is something to that. If the thing is such a terrible T2 car why did you buy it?

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by cherokee@Dec 8 2005, 05:23 PM
It would depend on if the car that I wanted to drive was in there.  I pick my car for what it means to me, not for any other reason.

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.... Ditto ....

...Plus it is not such a bad car. It is just classed wrong.... get it

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 9 2005, 03:03 AM
Point out that your argument is not from any real facts. Yep...

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Fact,

....Are there any cars out there that are to fast for ITS.... YES

.... Since IT was established 20 years ago, do we need to upgrade it ... YES

.... Is this thread trying to help come up with a solution ... YES

.... Since some people are "know it alls" are they trying to help .... NO

.... What does this thread pertain to..... ITR Class Poll

.... Who Started it.... Ron

.... Do some people loose their objectivity .... YES... Then they try to "Muddy the water" and degrade others without being provoked.

..... Need I say more?