July FasTrack posted
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
Joe Harlan
New member
So Andy, What year is your car and what system are you running? Second you have not addressed the fact that you guys have created a model based on info provided here?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Joe, read the posts. I have a 1994 R Model with the original harness. Did we create a model if when you UD/BD, you have to change out the whole harness? If you try to go to the OBD-2 system in an OBD-1 car, the result is the later car that already exists.
Sling the BS all you want boys, I stand by the statement it was a logical move. If, in the interest of the 'integrity of the IT rules', you want the early cars seperated from the later cars, fine. I'll support it at the expense of common sense. I am done. Don't mistake my silence for any type of agreement. My position is clear, right or wrong.
I know that, Andy; that's what this is all about for you. It really has virtually nothing to do with the technical arguments at hand.
I understand that, Andy, which is exactly why it's like pissing against a wall having a technical argument with you.
You. Just. Don't Get. It. And I'm going to quit trying to spoon-feed it to you.
Ignorance=Bliss; Andy=Happy.
When you get the REAL numbers, we can talk. Otherwise, I'm going to jump in my McLaren F1 this weekend and take it to ELEVEN!!!
Joe Harlan
New member
So Andy using the obd1 stuff which pistons are you using? Early compression or late compression?
I ain't slinging shit here....I want clear answers.
I ain't slinging shit here....I want clear answers.
JeffYoung
Active member
There are some valid points being thrown out here by Greg and Joe, but great Hay-Soos! Does anyone think that Andy is really trying to stack the deck in favor of a car he drives?
All I have ever seen Andy do is devote a boatload of time to making IT better; just don't buy that this is some inside job to help the Miatas.
I suspect that a LOT of cars had some fudge factor applied to them, and we are focusing on the ITA Miatas because we have an ITAC member who drives one. I also suspect the magnitude of the fudge factor is no greater than that on the other cars.
That is specualtion; I have no concrete examples.
I will say this though -- my experience in SMs is that aero is POOR. Most ITB cars seemed significantly faster at the end of the long straight at VIR than our SMs. Just a "gut" feeling though, no data to back it up.
On the flip side, Greg is correct that the Miata CLEARLY is better than the sum of its parts. I know we hate referring back to on track data, but the times that SMs run at 115 to 120 whp are nothing short of incredible.
All I have ever seen Andy do is devote a boatload of time to making IT better; just don't buy that this is some inside job to help the Miatas.
I suspect that a LOT of cars had some fudge factor applied to them, and we are focusing on the ITA Miatas because we have an ITAC member who drives one. I also suspect the magnitude of the fudge factor is no greater than that on the other cars.
That is specualtion; I have no concrete examples.
I will say this though -- my experience in SMs is that aero is POOR. Most ITB cars seemed significantly faster at the end of the long straight at VIR than our SMs. Just a "gut" feeling though, no data to back it up.
On the flip side, Greg is correct that the Miata CLEARLY is better than the sum of its parts. I know we hate referring back to on track data, but the times that SMs run at 115 to 120 whp are nothing short of incredible.
Greg:"I personally believe the M1 is not the aero slug that everyone thinks it is."
No, it seems you think the little girls car is the devil!
I have never seen so much "car hate". If Stretch had smoked your butt at ARRC I could understand, but you smoked EVERYBODIES BUTT.
You guys can change the the 96s and 97s to their own line or whatever it is called and I will suppor t it, I think if I read this long hate letter right, it will make my weight go down by 10 lbs. If so thanks.
As far as aero, as usual I don't know one way or the other. I would think that aero would be a bigger factor at someplace like RAtlanta then some other places. If that is a correct assumption, then a miata probably sucks in that area.
So that the MKKK doesn't bring a rope and torches to ARRC I will try to talk Bob into just running SM so he won't get the rest of us LYNCHED!
Actually this thread could be considered a preamble to a hate crime as my miata donor had a rainbow sticker on the rear bumper when I bought it!
You guys may need to pick on another model just so the feds won't put two & two together.
Mac (hoping for 2370) the "female-car" racer
No, it seems you think the little girls car is the devil!
I have never seen so much "car hate". If Stretch had smoked your butt at ARRC I could understand, but you smoked EVERYBODIES BUTT.
You guys can change the the 96s and 97s to their own line or whatever it is called and I will suppor t it, I think if I read this long hate letter right, it will make my weight go down by 10 lbs. If so thanks.
As far as aero, as usual I don't know one way or the other. I would think that aero would be a bigger factor at someplace like RAtlanta then some other places. If that is a correct assumption, then a miata probably sucks in that area.
So that the MKKK doesn't bring a rope and torches to ARRC I will try to talk Bob into just running SM so he won't get the rest of us LYNCHED!
Actually this thread could be considered a preamble to a hate crime as my miata donor had a rainbow sticker on the rear bumper when I bought it!
You guys may need to pick on another model just so the feds won't put two & two together.
Mac (hoping for 2370) the "female-car" racer
Joe Harlan
New member
Woa Jeff, That is not what I am saying and lets be clear I believe Andy has enough integrity that even given a rule to do so he would not cheat the spirit of the IT rules. The issue is that by combining the cars. The early car was used for the process, The late car was assed at that weight making 5 more HP. My guess is the 5 HP has more to do with the compression bump than the ECU. Now under the update back date rule the OBD1 car get the compression bump and runs at the lighter weight. Now we have given a compression bump to a car that was used to class the car using the process. The process needs to be re-run on the early after the compression bump and my money says the weight goes up. Again I don't care what car it is. If Amy's NX got a compression bump from an error in the manualof VTS then I would expect the ITAC to re-run Amy's car also.
shwah
New member
Joe - the specified compression ratio did not change. The actual factory compression ratio did. It is common, VW is a prime example, for the actual CR on a new car to be below the specified number. What I am reading here is that Mazda simply made the actual match their spec with an updated piston.
What does this mean? Well both cars can run a 9.5:1 motor. However one of them is gaining more than .5, and a hair more power than the other. In the end they both have the same power potential since they have the same intake, valves, bore, stroke, compression, and ability to run any ecu programming.
Using the higher compression piston does not increase the maximum allowable CR. Also, I don't know this, but it may be a superceded factory replacement at this point (I don't care what Mazda ships you in a crate motor, what do they sell you at the parts counter zoomers?), in which case the point is even more moot.
What does this mean? Well both cars can run a 9.5:1 motor. However one of them is gaining more than .5, and a hair more power than the other. In the end they both have the same power potential since they have the same intake, valves, bore, stroke, compression, and ability to run any ecu programming.
Using the higher compression piston does not increase the maximum allowable CR. Also, I don't know this, but it may be a superceded factory replacement at this point (I don't care what Mazda ships you in a crate motor, what do they sell you at the parts counter zoomers?), in which case the point is even more moot.
forget about championships, trophys, and points. lets do some weight adjusting and have great races. minus andys miata we are running against each other at higher weights. why? it plain costs more and for what? the integras in the east should run IT integra at 2450lbs or anybody else can join in. they started SSM in the east because the rules were loose. so lets start ITT or what ever you want to call it.leave the rules for the ARRC and the IT festivals. we can adjust weight per votes. maybe we can really get the other cars closer?
If I get this right we are talking about a 94 / 95 & a 96 / 97 group of Miatas with stock crate engines, Right? If so none of them get 128 OR 133 HP. That is marketing BS and I think Mazda has been sued before about this type of HP claim. Now I know you constitutional lawyer types will say that you can only go by what is on the "line'" in the manual, but in reality your dealing with false numbers to start with.
OBVIOUSLY AS WE SAY DOWN HERE: Andy must be the best racer to take a dump between a pair of boots, because he has singlehandily started a Miata reign of terror. You guys need to warn the drag racers that they might be next. The awsome power of ZOOM ZOOM may come after them too.
OBVIOUSLY AS WE SAY DOWN HERE: Andy must be the best racer to take a dump between a pair of boots, because he has singlehandily started a Miata reign of terror. You guys need to warn the drag racers that they might be next. The awsome power of ZOOM ZOOM may come after them too.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
No. They were both listed at 9.0:1. The early (pre Feb 1994) 94 car was rumored to have a softer set-up @ 8.8:1. When the specs came out in 1995 and they had the 'current' pistons, the hp rating stayed at 128hp. The published CR was 9.0:1 for the entire life of the M1 1.8 (94-97). The HP bump didn't come until the OBD-1 to OBD-II swap.
Ipress I think your missing the points. I personally don't care what AB or GA's cars weigh or how much HP they make. GOOD FOR THEM!!! The only thing that I (we) care about is parity amongst the field. The problem is that once something is on paper the reversal of it is nearly impossible, or is soo expensive to prove that it's simply not worth it. The Miata thing is already written, therefore some will defend it to the end (A
or will argue it's validity (GA) to the end. Simple politics, a la debate club in school. I get my feathers ruffled when I think about how my 2600# (originally 2675) pound 135hp "monster" is classed with parity, especially when compared to the 2600# e36 318is, and the 2480# 140 hp miata. It's the gliches in the system that upset people. Besides AB's a big boy, he's smart, and he's winning...he expects this and can take it. Anyone on this BB would gladly trade for his "problems".
R
or will argue it's validity (GA) to the end. Simple politics, a la debate club in school. I get my feathers ruffled when I think about how my 2600# (originally 2675) pound 135hp "monster" is classed with parity, especially when compared to the 2600# e36 318is, and the 2480# 140 hp miata. It's the gliches in the system that upset people. Besides AB's a big boy, he's smart, and he's winning...he expects this and can take it. Anyone on this BB would gladly trade for his "problems". R
finally....someone not drinking the kool-aid of miata fear.
to the best of my knowledge, if you buy pistons from mazda, you get the same piston you'd get in a crate, the same piston that came in any 1995 and up car produced post 3/95.
well, actually it came after, as some of the later run of 95s actually had OBDII and the updated pistons. but it didn't make a damn bit of difference, as the SM crowd has proven, or else that small window in time of miata production would be selling for huge premiums.
more like 120-125 to be perfectly proper.....and in the draft pushing each other.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Ipress I think your missing the points. I personally don't care what AB or GA's cars weigh or how much HP they make. GOOD FOR THEM!!! The only thing that I (we) care about is parity amongst the field. The problem is that once something is on paper the reversal of it is nearly impossible, or is soo expensive to prove that it's simply not worth it. The Miata thing is already written, therefore some will defend it to the end (A
R [/b]
Rob, I hear you, but keep a candle burning for other cars too. Some run ITA at about 2300 with 125 Whp and 105 ft lbs of tq.
It has been an interesting discussion, although it's like picking diamonds...tough work with few hits..but there have been a few.
Eagle7
New member
Of course I do (well, except the injectors - those look equivalent to me). Tongue firmly placed in cheek, Andy.
Two different manufacturers published specs on the same spec line. Sounds like the issue that's being debated. Just thought I'd make the point that putting cars with different capabilities on the same spec line is nothing new.
Joe Harlan
New member
Travis, You dont have to be a dick....I don't hate Miata's I hate rules that are not consistently applied....Stuff your mazda hate shit right in your ass....Your own posting says there is a difference in compression....
It is really not a problem and I am done posting on this thread. I will follow the process to get this car relooked at by the CRB. You guys go ahead and have at it from here. But to try to convinc anyone that the process applied at 128 is fairly reapplied to 133 iss full of crap.
way to keep it classy.
once again....there is NO mechanical difference between the cars as of today. would you rather the ITAC and CRB deal in actuals, or printed media fluff from a historicaly unreliable mfg?
the redcoats are coming! the red.....i mean the miatas are coming! the MIATAS ARE COMING!
wheeeee!!!!