nhis enduro longer is better
- Thread starter dickita15
- Start date
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Awesome!
Great job as always NER CB. Tell me it's on Sunday and the beer is on me!
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Great job as always NER CB. Tell me it's on Sunday and the beer is on me!
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com
dickita15
New member
no it is on saturday andy. we are working on a plan that lets regional drivers run the practice on sat morning and still get a refund if the car breaks in the enduro.
The sups are not written yet but I belive we will still have a minimum time if you are refueling though we have no minimum number of stops. actually I am coming under some pressure to find a way to reduce fuel spillage.
dick patullo
The sups are not written yet but I belive we will still have a minimum time if you are refueling though we have no minimum number of stops. actually I am coming under some pressure to find a way to reduce fuel spillage.
dick patullo
Dick, it seems the only reasonable way to do this is to specify a minimum amount of time per stop. You can't specify equipment (such as safety dry breaks) so tempering the adrenaline via a minimum stopping time seems a reasonable alternative. Even the slowest of street pumps can fill a tank in 3 minutes or so... GA
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I think that a minimun time for a fuel stop will encourage those drivers who do not have an enduro crew to enter the event.
I know that part of enduros is the team aspect, but I think thats better emphasized for longer events such as the 6, 12 and 24 hour events.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
I know that part of enduros is the team aspect, but I think thats better emphasized for longer events such as the 6, 12 and 24 hour events.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
A stop & go penalty is a great motivator to not spill fuel, I can attest personally.
What about having a time limit only on the time that the fuel filler is open - Once the door opens, nothing can happen on the car, for 1 minute. Most dumps can easily get done in that time w/ planning. Driver out of the car during the stop.
Jake, you're not wrong, but a 4 hour race can't be done alone. Having long mandatory pit stops cuts away at an advantage created by a well executed stop & also provides more potential overheating problems for motor & brakes. The margins in some races like this show that pit stops can make the difference in top finish places.
When a regional enduro spills more fuel than the roundy-round guys I think there will be a legitimate gripe.
Dick I would be more than willing to help w/ ideas off line for this.
Matt
[email protected]
What about having a time limit only on the time that the fuel filler is open - Once the door opens, nothing can happen on the car, for 1 minute. Most dumps can easily get done in that time w/ planning. Driver out of the car during the stop.
Jake, you're not wrong, but a 4 hour race can't be done alone. Having long mandatory pit stops cuts away at an advantage created by a well executed stop & also provides more potential overheating problems for motor & brakes. The margins in some races like this show that pit stops can make the difference in top finish places.
When a regional enduro spills more fuel than the roundy-round guys I think there will be a legitimate gripe.
Dick I would be more than willing to help w/ ideas off line for this.
Matt
[email protected]
DaveITB1
New member
Dick,
Thanks for the update on the enduro. That is great news. Longer is better......
I will also offer my help with ideas, etc for this event (if it is needed/wanted). The more help we can get from all the members, the better (and more fun) it will be.
Happy New Year!
Dave A.
[email protected]
Thanks for the update on the enduro. That is great news. Longer is better......
I will also offer my help with ideas, etc for this event (if it is needed/wanted). The more help we can get from all the members, the better (and more fun) it will be.
Happy New Year!
Dave A.
[email protected]
dickita15
New member
Writing supps and getting everyone to agree and understand their meaning has been a greater challenge than one would expect. There are a lot of people who need to be on the same page, drivers, crew, chief steward, pit steward and pit workers including the grid and tech people who become pit workers to help with this event.
Minimum pit stop times do hurt the best teams but this event is in my mind for most an intro to endurance racing and we cannot expect everyone to be trained and practiced in this type of racing. Given that I am amazed at teams who have never practiced fueling against a watch.
The two tasks that we do not want rushed are the refueling and the driver change. Sloppy fueling and belt problems are risky. Our current philosophy is that there is no minimum number of stops. And stop that involves refueling must be 3 min. minimum with the clock starting when you open the fuel system. No one may be under the car during fueling but you can do driver changes or anything else during the fueling. I know that last year this is not how it was enforced but that go back to communicating the rules to the officials. I will fix that. If we require the driver out of the car during the refueling then the belting part of the stop gets rushed.
The fuel spillage thing seems to be mostly from those that use funnels. The car becomes full and there you are with 2 quarts of gas in the funnel. There has been talk of a penalty if the spot on the ground is larger than say 12”. Can you see pit worker with cardboard circles.
By the way my long-term goal is to make this event a 6 hour and to get our muffled date back at Lime Rock for an enduro there as well.
Dick Patullo
NER Asst Road Race Chairman
[email protected]
Minimum pit stop times do hurt the best teams but this event is in my mind for most an intro to endurance racing and we cannot expect everyone to be trained and practiced in this type of racing. Given that I am amazed at teams who have never practiced fueling against a watch.
The two tasks that we do not want rushed are the refueling and the driver change. Sloppy fueling and belt problems are risky. Our current philosophy is that there is no minimum number of stops. And stop that involves refueling must be 3 min. minimum with the clock starting when you open the fuel system. No one may be under the car during fueling but you can do driver changes or anything else during the fueling. I know that last year this is not how it was enforced but that go back to communicating the rules to the officials. I will fix that. If we require the driver out of the car during the refueling then the belting part of the stop gets rushed.
The fuel spillage thing seems to be mostly from those that use funnels. The car becomes full and there you are with 2 quarts of gas in the funnel. There has been talk of a penalty if the spot on the ground is larger than say 12”. Can you see pit worker with cardboard circles.
By the way my long-term goal is to make this event a 6 hour and to get our muffled date back at Lime Rock for an enduro there as well.
Dick Patullo
NER Asst Road Race Chairman
[email protected]
Scott Koschwitz
New member
Great news about the 4-hour enduro at NHIS. I have been looking for another race date this season. I will seriously consider this one.
Dick, also good news about the possibility of running an enduro at Lime Rock again. I flagged what I think was the last SCCA enduro at Lime Rock (2001?). I was at station 2 for the first-lap, first-corner melee in a three-hour race -- what a shame. Since I've moved to the driver ranks, I've been disappointed that we haven't run any more enduros at Lime Rock.
[This message has been edited by Scott Koschwitz (edited January 12, 2005).]
Dick, also good news about the possibility of running an enduro at Lime Rock again. I flagged what I think was the last SCCA enduro at Lime Rock (2001?). I was at station 2 for the first-lap, first-corner melee in a three-hour race -- what a shame. Since I've moved to the driver ranks, I've been disappointed that we haven't run any more enduros at Lime Rock.
[This message has been edited by Scott Koschwitz (edited January 12, 2005).]
Matt Rowe
New member
I think you hit one of the key problems here. At the enduros I've praticipated in there are two types of fuel spill, the one where an experienced team has a problem, and the one where it is an inexperienced team. How you mandate that teams practice is beyond me. The problem I've seen with a minimum time in multi stop races is even among the experienced teams, a car with lesser fuel mileage gets hit with a bigger penalty. By changing from 3 to 4 hours you may have some teams stopping twice while others only stop once. If you make a fuel stop a minimum of 3 minutes that is hard to make up on the track. Yes, that's part of choosing which car you run and how you tune it. But people generally aren't happy about what is seen as an artificial delay.
If most fuel spillage is a result of using a funnel how does a minimum time reduce that? Without knowing how much gas is needed to fill the tank who knows when to stop pouring? That also applies to the guys with dump cans, they just spill less if their reaction time is good.
Requiring a catch pan with oil dry under the car during refueling goes a long way towards minimizing fuel on the ground. Also the 12" rule has some issues with enforcement on rainy days and shared pit spaces. Just something to think about.
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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96
Amen, brother.
You should have seen the view from inside the dust cloud. Yikes. Proved once again that drivers are generally dumber than a bag of hammers. "To finish first, you must first finish".
Fueling and enduros - there is probably no way to eliminate all fuel spills. Many classes can't run dry breaks, even if they wanted to (SS, SM, SRF, etc.). You just have to figure out how to mitigate what drools onto the ground. Catch pans, 'spill pillows' (i.e. Saf-T-Clean 'Pig Mat'), etc. can all be a big improvement.
NASCAR-style dump cans without dry breaks are almost as messy as jugs and funnels.
Most recent SCCA enduros have specifically banned overhead fuel rigs. It may have been that Supps writers feared all that gas above their heads, or that it was a significant disadvantage to teams that couldn't afford one. One thing overhead rigs do is minimize fuel spills, even without dry breaks. Using them with a standard 'trip' style pump nozzle, or even just a 'deadman' valve on the end of the hose, helps keeps gas contained.
Matt Rowe
New member
Agreed, about the dump cans and funnels. Dry breaks are really what you need, but as you pointed out not every class can use them. The 12 at Summit this year is allowing overhead fuel rigs. In the past I had been told they were outlawed due to costs to the competitor. I'm guessing that they see the safety aspect outweighs the cost. For a team just starting out it seems like a lot of money but if they are allowed but not mandatory the better prepared teams can be safer.
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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96
[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited January 12, 2005).]
