Nov Fastrack - Intake Rule Change

Not sure why the use of spherical bearings in the context of unrestricted bushing materials is a problem. In the context of automotive applications a suspension bushing of any material is by the very nature of its application a bearing irrespective if it is plastic, rubber, poly or metal. An objection to the addition of balls or rollers to the bearing as not being in the spirit can be made I suppose (I would disagree that there is a spirit issue though since the wording is clear on unrestricted material) - but most any suspension bushing out there is in fact already a bearing. If you want to eliminate bearings from suspension applications then by definition there would be no more bushing.


Originally posted by Bushing Definitions
a simple suspension bearing that accommodates limited rotary motion, typically made of two coaxial steel tubes bonded to a sleeve of rubber between them. The compliance of the bushing in different directions has a great effect on ride harshness and handling.
www.autocenter.com/about/

A metal sleeve or lining that acts as a bearing between rotating or moving surfaces.
www.ticms.com/wizard/glossary.htm

a cylindrical metal lining used to reduce friction (my own comment - that this is also known as a plain bearing)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Plain bearings are also referred to as bushings.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushing
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So if we are going to change the mindset so that a bushing is a bushing - what exactly is a bushing if it isn't a bearing?
 
Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 24 2005, 06:38 PM
George: '06.

Until we change the mindset of the rules and make a bushing a bushing, then wire is a resistor,
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This is where we'll disagree... A wire is a wire, and a resistor is a resistor... That's the unstrained interpretation... Anything beyond that starts getting into semantics, and when you start doing that, you are straining the intent and what is written...

Again, if you go to Radio Shack, and ask for a resistor, you'll get a small device encased in ceramic or ???... If you ask for a wire, you'll get a long stringy strand of copper... If you say that you'd like a 4.7Ohm 100watt resistor, You'll never get someone to say "would you like that in 20' of 16awg or 16' of 14awg??"

And, I understand about the bushings vs bearings thing, and I agree with you... However, there is NOTHING in the GCR/ITCS that defines a bearing as being a bushing, unless I've missed something (I do recall seeing something about this in one of the fastracks, so I may have missed it...). I personally think that for IT cars, installing heims in the suspension goes beyond the intent of the class, especially with what you have to go through to make them fit/work within the rules... but, were we to change this definitively, a LOT of cars would be made illegal, and that would not be "right"... So, we live with it...

There is no need, however, to live with NEW rules getting to this point...

Just my opinion, for what it's worth...

Like I said, I don't want to get into arguing semantics over this one rule, because it's not up to us here.... it's up to the driver's and the tech inspectors at the track to enforce the rules as they are written, and intended...
 
I really, really, REALLY don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion about suspension bushings (we've been there, done that), but I used it as an example simply because:

1) I don't believe that wires as resistors - or spherical bearings as suspension bushings - are within the philosophy of the class or within common-sense interpretation of the rules, however it's easy to let it get that way to the letter of the rules; and
2) If air (or bearings, or rubber, or Play-Do) is a bushing material within the context of the IT rules, then air (or wire, or Silly String) is also a resistor. Bushing material is "free"; "resistors" are allowed and undefined, ergo free.

We're either consistent to common sense interpretation or we're not; we're either grassroots technology ("...useful and necessary to construct a safe race car...") or we're not. But let's not pick and choose to which rules we apply this mindset, and let's not try to micromanage the rules into a Pandora's Box. - GA

On edit: Darin sez: "...were we to change this definitively, a LOT of cars would be made illegal, and that would not be "right"..."

Darin - and this is a not a personal attack, but an attack on the ideas expressed - that's a coward's way out. Either the rules mean something or they don't. I don't give two shakes if someone made a modification - expensive or cheap - that later is ruled contrary to the spirit of the rules. Are you trying to say that as long as the spirit is violated in an expensive way that it's "OK"? Of course you don't mean that, but that's what you're saying!

Then, what about the other 85% of the competitors that have not yet done this modification? You (collective you) are now telling them that they have to spend this money, in apparent violation of the spirit of the rules, so that they can be competitive? Is that "right"?

The spirit of the rules means something or it doesn't. Problem is, when you violate the spirit in one way and allow people to get away with it, you open up that Pandora's box to violations in other ways. You have said, in effect, 'clever' interpretations of the rules is acceptable. By allowing the spirit to be violated in the suspension realm you have encouraged people to violate it in other ways, such as this silly "resistor" idea. It will either continue to escalate or you will be forced to write minor rules to cover each and every one of these discrepancies (e.g., SM radiators, and kill switch mounting plates). - GA
 
I guess we will just disagree on the bushings then since my common sense interpretation is that a bushing is a bearing. And there is not a lot that has to be gone through for some to use it - but that is not a standard that should be used to evaluate an interpretation. Just as spherical bearings are adapted to some cars easily and other not so easily, this intake rule will easily provide a benefit to some while it will mean little to others.

On the "...useful and necessary to construct a safe race car...", I don't see a lot of evidence as that being a guiding principle of the rules anyway or I would not be restricted from using a distributor gear material (OEM identical in all other respects) that wouldn't strip and lose spark distribution in the middle of races.

I agree rules need to mean what they say and say what they mean. I do wish there was a lot less interpretation to be utilized or made necessary through others' use of them. I also wish that common sense was common because even that varies and reasonable differences can be found among parties each believing they are applying common sense. I sure would like to keep my distributor turning in time with my crankshaft for instance.
 
Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 24 2005, 07:14 PM
On edit: Darin sez: "...were we to change this definitively, a LOT of cars would be made illegal, and that would not be "right"..."

Darin - and this is a not a personal attack, but an attack on the ideas expressed - that's a coward's way out.
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No personal offense taken, because as many times as I've gone to bat, both publically and in private, over more serious IT issues, I think you of all people know how little truth there is in any notion of me being "cowadly" on IT issues...

As for the rule for "bushings"... AS IT'S WRITTEN, I personally don't see the allowance for Spherical Bearings... We've gone over all the reasons before, so those of you who want to re-hash, just do a search... I'm sure you'll get an earfull...

So, at that point, it's not up to the ITAC, or the CRB, to enforce the written rules... It's up to your fellow competitors and the technical inspectors... After that, the SOM might make a ruling one way or the other (hasn't that happened on this previously???)...

Now, the CRB COULD add a definition of "bushing", or explicitly say that "sperical bearings are not allowed as substitute bushings..." or something like that... That would fix the problem... AND, make a lot of cars suddenly illegal...

What would more likely happen, so as not to do this, is that the wording would be clarrifide so as to take away any question by explicitly ALLOWING spherical bearings, just like was done with forged pistons... Then, the whole contraversy would go away... AND, you'd end up right where we are today, only WITHOUT the ability to drag bearings vs. bushings into a conversation about wires vs. resistors as an example... ;)
 
Originally posted by Banzai240@Oct 24 2005, 05:39 PM
...AND, you'd end up right where we are today, only WITHOUT the ability to drag bearings vs. bushings into a conversation about wires vs. resistors as an example...  ;)
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:023:
 
>> Again, if you go to Radio Shack, and ask for a resistor, you'll get a small device encased in ceramic

Just for the sake of this crazy discussion I somehow started... I'd like to point out that 'Resistor Wire' is an actual part you can buy at your dealer. If you buy your autoparts at Radio Shack well then I can't help you :rolleyes: ;)

>> I'm looking forward to the advice from our technical partners at Bildon, about how this will be applied to the new Golf engine.

About the resistor wire, again I was kidding :018:

About the mods that can be made to the ABA intake. I imagine it would benefit from the same bits we tried on the VR6 intake. I'll be in touch.
 
Originally posted by Bildon@Oct 24 2005, 11:38 PM
>> Again, if you go to Radio Shack, and ask for a resistor, you'll get a small device encased in ceramic

Just for the sake of this crazy discussion I somehow started... I'd like to point out that 'Resistor Wire' is an actual part you can buy at your dealer.  If you buy your autoparts at Radio Shack well then I can't help you  :rolleyes:  ;)
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Again... "Resistor Wire" is NOT the same as "a resistor"...

And you are right... Radio Shack would be a terrible place to buy auto parts...

Resistors, on the other hand... well I doubt you local dealer sells those... :P
 
Originally posted by Banzai240@Oct 25 2005, 07:20 AM
Again... "Resistor Wire" is NOT the same as "a resistor"... 

And you are right...  Radio Shack would be a terrible place to buy auto parts...

Resistors, on the other hand...  well I doubt you local dealer sells those...  :P
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But to some guy who wants JUST the right resistance, with minimal current loss, he might decide to build his own resistor using said resistor wire.

And it might be 6 feet long. And be 143.745 ohms.

Heck, one could run 25 of the off-the-shelf-Radio-Shack resistors together in series and achieve the length and resistance needed....

Jarrod
 
Originally posted by JIgou@Oct 25 2005, 02:51 PM
Heck, one could run 25 of the off-the-shelf-Radio-Shack resistors together in series and achieve the length and resistance needed....

Jarrod
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Ummm... I don't see anything in the rule that allows for MULTIPLE resistors... it's "resistor".... singular... :P

And then, there is still that "cannot perform an otherwise illegal function" clause...

;)
 
but, were we to change this definitively, a LOT of cars would be made illegal, and that would not be "right"... So, we live with it...
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Darin,

I'm pretty much w/ Greg on this one. Your statement above, is essentially the definition of rules creep. Things are deemed to not fit the spirit of the rules, and they are taken out, at times, to the great expense of some (engine coatings jumps to mind, as do 3x adjustable, RR shocks). Sometimes that's just the way it goes. Who knows, maybe some day, the open ECU genie will get put back in the bottle.

The "is a wire a resistor" arguement is an interesting one. I'm inclined to agree that it is. To anybody that's into high-end audiophile stuff, you'll see folks 'tune' the length of their speaker wire, based on the resistence value. And what does an off-the-shelf resistor from Radio Shack do? It essentially puts the resistence achieved by a given length of wire, into a smaller, more manageable package. Both get you to the same end, one just doing it in a much more primative fashion.

I do agree that you can invoke the 'prohibited function' clause, but that's a real double-edged sword.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Oct 25 2005, 03:13 PM
The "is a wire a resistor" arguement is an interesting one.  I'm inclined to agree that it is.  ...  And what does an off-the-shelf resistor from Radio Shack do?  It essentially puts the resistence achieved by a given length of wire, into a smaller, more manageable package.  Both get you to the same end, one just doing it in a much more primative fashion.
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However, you JUST proved my point... You ask "is a wire a resistor"... well, NO, it's, as you clearly show here, a WIRE... it has resistance, but it's a WIRE... The mere fact that you differentiated the two in your question is clear evidence of this...

Then, you back that up by asking "what does an off-the-shelf resistor from Radio Shack do?"... well, that doesn't really matter for this converstion, because, you again seperated the THING from it's function...

Simple stated (untortured, unstrained, etc.):

A wire provides conductivity... a side effect of this happens to be resistance....

A resistor provides resistance, even though it happens to also provide conductivity...

Anything further is tortured and beyond a simple interpretation of the rules...

As for the "putting the genie back in the bottle" concerning the spherical bearings vs. bushings... I brought this up at the con-call last night, and was told that by a spherical bearing is considered a "bushing" and so they are legal... No further definition in the ITCS/GCR was necessary...

I could get crazy and go back into the discussion that the ITCS doesn't say "bushings are free", but rather, "bushing MATERIAL is unrestricted", which to me invokes the idea that the dimensions, etc., otherwise need to be as stock, etc... but we've already gone over that...

Not necessarilly my opinion on the matter, but it's not really a battle that has a lot of bennefit to fighting right now... We have bigger ideas to get implemented that will have more benefit to the class...
 
Apropos of nothing (I LOVE saying that), whether a lot of people are doing something should not be a consideration vis a vis legality or clarifications about what is or isn't legal.

I dare say that if we used that as a standard, we'd have to allow ITB VWs to select optional 1-5 gear ratios. This is going to be where I turn from rules NERD into protest ASS someday in the future... :)

K
 
True enough by that standard short shifters would be legal any day now, seeing how as 90% of the cars being sold list them as installed ...
 
Darin,

I'm not going to get into an arguement with you about this. I think we've come a long way towards settling our differences, and I don't want to take a step backwards. But, just because you ask if an X is a Y, doesn't disprove your arguement. Is a bearing a bushing?

In your comment about the bearing/bushing issue, you state that you were told that a spherical bearing is a bushing, end of story. What happens if someone later decides that a wire is a resistor?
 
Originally posted by Banzai240@Oct 25 2005, 11:09 AM
However, you JUST proved my point...  You ask "is a wire a resistor"...  well, NO, it's, as you clearly show here, a WIRE...  it has resistance, but it's a WIRE...  The mere fact that you differentiated the two in your question is clear evidence of this...

Then, you back that up by asking "what does an off-the-shelf resistor from Radio Shack do?"...  well, that doesn't really matter for this converstion, because, you again seperated the THING from it's function...

Simple stated (untortured, unstrained, etc.):

A wire provides conductivity...  a side effect of this happens to be resistance....

A resistor provides resistance, even though it happens to also provide conductivity...

Anything further is tortured and beyond a simple interpretation of the rules...
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Rather than "what" does a resistor do, we need to discuss "how".

How does a resistor work? What's going on inside that convenient package?

They sure do come in a lot of shapes and sizes....
http://www.surplussales.com/Resistors/Res-WireWnd.html

Jarrod
 
I think the problem here with the resistor issue is with the wording. Didnt the previous wording as it was in the GCR previous to when in was taken out, say something about the RESISTANCE VALUES instead of A RESISTOR. Maybe I am incorrect about this, If I could find one of my olds GCRs I would look it up. Anyone have one?

I am curious to see if the wording changed in the couple of years that it was left out to the time that is was put back in.

I think there comes a point where we can get too literal, I am not going to protest someone over whether someone considers a wire a resistor or not. Thats spliting hairs and a little rediculous. If someone has a micro processor inline of a wire, that is slightly different. Bascially what we are talking about is allowing FI cars to tune their cars to run a little richer or leaner. Carberated cars already do this with the turn of a screw driver.

I think we have more serious problems to tackle, like why are IT fields shrinking or why are there cars that completely dominate their classes.


Derek Ketchie
 
Originally posted by madrabbit15+Nov 4 2005, 04:17 PM-->
Didnt the previous wording as it was in the GCR previous to when in was taken out, say something about the RESISTANCE VALUES instead of A RESISTOR.  [/b]
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You are correct about this. You micro-processor example is excellent, and was one of those things discussed when trying to figure out how to word this... In the end, it's still pretty tough to fight the rules-lawyers... but we tried... ;)


<!--QuoteBegin-madrabbit15@Nov 4 2005, 04:17 PM
I think we have more serious problems to tackle, like why are IT fields shrinking or why are there cars that completely dominate their classes.
Derek Ketchie
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Interesting comment... where are they "shrinking"?? Which classes???

I think the first comment may be answered by the reason for the second... Stay tuned... we are working on fixing the second...
 
Originally posted by madrabbit15@Nov 4 2005, 12:17 PM


I think there comes a point where we can get too literal, I am not going to protest someone over whether someone considers a wire a resistor or not.  Thats spliting hairs and a little rediculous. 

Derek Ketchie
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You are right...unless someone uses that extra wire ('resistor') to allow the repositioning of the MAF / AFM / Intake to benefit them with more power...

Sometimes it's not just about the rule, it's about what ELSE can happen when a harmless rule is monkied with...

AB
 
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