Nov Fastrack - Intake Rule Change

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 4 2005, 05:19 PM
You are right...unless someone uses that extra wire ('resistor') to allow the repositioning of the MAF / AFM / Intake to benefit them with more power...

Sometimes it's not just about the rule, it's about what ELSE can happen when a harmless rule is monkied with...

AB
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I would agree with you, but seeing how there was just a new rule added that the intake could be changed/ modified ahead of the throttlebody as long as the stock A/F meter was used and operational. If you do not want to allow the relocation of the A/F meter then this rule should not have been added. This resistor rule is about a resistor not about the relocation of the A/F meter. The relocaiton of the A/F meter is allowed by the rule that was just added in the last fasttrack The rule that was added regarding the intake track is the rule that affects what you are speaking of. I think this rule was added so that cars that use throttle position sensors (like hondas)did not have have an advantgage just because of they way their intake as designed. In my opinion, this rule was way overdue, as previous cars that used an A/F meter were at a disadvantage because they could not run a huge pipe all they way to the throttlebody like cars that used a Throttle position sensor could, because they had no A/F meter.

We need to focus on rules that allow a mod or not, not some #ss backwards way to prove something not legal.


Derek Ketchie
 
The new rule says:
"On cars so equipped, the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified."

The MAF is a sensor. My interpretation is something like the K&N Typhoon is legal because it retains the MAF, but does not retain the MAF housing. Is the intent to keep only the sensor itself, or the housing and sensor? Or is the intent that intake air should pass thru the housing and sensor? This is not what it says, but what is the intent? What do others think?
 
Originally posted by mowog@Nov 5 2005, 08:06 PM
The new rule says:
"On cars so equipped, the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified."

The MAF is a sensor. My interpretation is something like the K&N Typhoon is legal because it retains the MAF, but does not retain the MAF housing. Is the intent to keep only the sensor itself, or the housing and sensor? Or is the intent that intake air should pass thru the housing and sensor? This is not what it says, but what is the intent? What do others think?
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Is the removal of the casing not modifying? I think it most certainly is and therefor illgeal. If is says you can't, you damn well can't. (That's a reverse Geo!)

AB
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 5 2005, 09:10 PM
Is the removal of the casing not modifying?  I think it most certainly is and therefor illgeal.  If is says you can't, you damn well can't.  (That's a reverse Geo!)

AB
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LOL! Attaboy Andy! :D
 
Mowog exposes an interesting distinction...
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 5 2005, 10:10 PM
Is the removal of the casing not modifying?
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...it depends whether the 'metering/measuring device' is integral with the casing or whether the casing is simply a fixture for mounting the 'device'.

Can't we move temp guage 'measuring devices' anywhere along a water hose?

However, I can't really think of any MAF sensors whose casing doesn't constitute part of what is a single part #. You can't go to the dealer and buy just a Thermistor and Platinum wire to mount somewhere in your air intake B)
 
Originally posted by mowog@Nov 6 2005, 12:06 AM
The new rule says:
"On cars so equipped, the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified."


Is the intent to keep only the sensor itself, or the housing and sensor? Or is the intent that intake air should pass thru the housing and sensor? This is not what it says, but what is the intent? What do others think?
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It says it must be "OPERATIONAL", and that's exactly what I'd take it to mean...

In order for it to be operational, it must be an integral part of the air intake system, and have all the air (the entire "MASS" of air... It IS a "mass airflow sensor", after all...) passing through it...

That's how it operates on the stock vehicle, and that's how it must operate today...

Anything else is NOT operational, and would be illegal...

Gramatically speaking, of course... :blink: ;)
 
And that's how it would operate in K&N Typhoon type installation. So we all agree the installation proposed would be legal. :023:
 
Not to give you guys Acid, On a lot of late model stuff....350z comes to mind. The sensor unbolts from the housing. I think the place your right is you ca't get them seperate in this case but what about other cars?
 
I have to say that I perceive the intent of the rule that for all cars whether speed density or mass air flow driven to now be restricted by the throttle body rather than some by the throttle body and others by MAF intakaes. I believe that if the sensor is not integrated into a housing but is "bolted" to a housing then attaching the sensor to another housing does not modify the metering/measuring device and it remains operational. It is within the spirit of the rules it moves everyone to being limited by the stock throttle body (or throttle body restrictor if applicable).

To me calling a housing the metering/measuring device when the sensor is not integral is like calling a wire an IT intended resistor. The sensor is the metering/measuring device and it may not be modified and must be operational (which I take to mean that it still be used for fuel control, not just plugged in but no longer measuring air intake).
 
My thought is this. The rule needs to limit cars to the factory bore size of the MAF or air box. I would make the case that the only thing limiting the ITA 240sx from becoming an ITS car is the crappy MAF housing it has stock. Like the ECU rules these things were considered when the cars were originally classed and if you open it up I think the balance again gets lost.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 6 2005, 09:54 PM
The rule needs to limit cars to the factory bore size of the MAF or air box.
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But that isn't the language of the rule and if that was the intent of the rule the language can't even be construed to lead to that conclusion IMO. While I see the rule as pretty much saying intake air flow limitation for all FI cars is intended to be determined by throttle body bore not by any other OEM design differences.
 
Originally posted by turboICE@Nov 7 2005, 02:06 AM
But that isn't the language of the rule and if that was the intent of the rule the language can't even be construed to lead to that conclusion IMO. While I see the rule as pretty much saying intake air flow limitation for all FI cars is intended to be determined by throttle body bore not by any other OEM design differences.
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Air intake hoses, tubes, pipes, resonators, intake mufflers, housings, etc. located ahead of the carburetor/throttle body may be removed or substituted. On cars so equipped, the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified. (Nov. 05 Fastrack).


The "air metering/measuring device" is the ENTIRE MAF, or "air flow meter", or "air mass meter", not just the sensor inside... It is the whole package, as delivered on the base model of the car... ANY alteration to this device, including removing the "sensor" portion of the "device", would constitute a "modification"... Further, it can NOT be operational if parts of it are missing or removed, and the "mass" of air entering the engine is NOT passing through it as delivered from the factory on the base model...
 
Originally posted by Banzai240@Nov 7 2005, 02:34 PM
Air intake hoses, tubes, pipes, resonators, intake mufflers, housings, etc. located ahead of the carburetor/throttle body may be removed or substituted. On cars so equipped, the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified. (Nov. 05 Fastrack).
The "air metering/measuring device" is the ENTIRE MAF, or "air flow meter", or "air mass meter", not just the sensor inside...  It is the whole package, as delivered on the base model of the car...  ANY alteration to this device, including removing the "sensor" portion of the "device", would constitute a "modification"...  Further, it can NOT be operational if parts of it are missing or removed, and the "mass" of air entering the engine is NOT passing through it as delivered from the factory on the base model...
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Emphasizing doesn't change the meaning of the words.

The MAF is only the sensor and yes air must pass it to be operational.

The language explicitly lists housings may be removed or substituted, there is no point in saying that it didn't mean for them to be. The device by which air is measured is the sensor itself - the housing used plays no role in the operation or the measuring of the air flow.

All air still flows through the throttle body just like a speed density system and other than being required to still use the MAF itself everything in front of the throttle body is free just like a speed density system.

Not only does the language not require the mass of air to pass through the engine as delivered from the factory - the rules throughout modify the mass of air passing through the engine as delivered from the factory. With the change in the rule the only constant required is that air pass through the throttle body as delivered from the factory. All FI cars now fairly face the same restriction the OEM throttle body or line specific restrictor bore.
 
Darin,
I'm not flaming you as I respect your opinion :023: and I really do agree with you. However you seem to think everyone reads the rules as you do. You consistently refer to the intent and not the actual written rule. The intent needs to be more clearly stated in the rules so that it BECOMES the rule and people are not left so much room to interpret.

I talk to MANY customers getting into IT and especially those who come from other forms of racing where the rules are different. (if it doesn't say it ... do it) Many are innocently or ignorantly (depending on your position) breaking the IT rules. It's for this reason that we need more clearly written rules that make the INTENT more obvious or indisputable.

What we need is for people to write the rules better. Can't the rules go through some sort of peer revue by posting the exact proposed wording in FastTrack prior to us seeing in ink for the first time after it's a done deal? This would give the IT community time to polish the wording to allow for better rules making. Sure you'd get alot of junk requests...but I bet that you would also get a number of excellent requests that would fix the rules right the first time.

TurboIce,
I think that this phrase negates your argument that the MAF can be removed or substituted. "On cars so equipped..." A MAF can't be operational and not be connected to the intake tubing.

Putting on asbestos suit ... :ph34r:
 
Never said it wouldn't be connected to intake tubing. The question is whether or not the MAF has to remain in the OEM housing or can the MAF be moved to a substituted housing. The language says it can be.

If that was not the intent - then first it is more than poorly written since the language as written captures nothing to tell me that a MAF sensor can not moved to a substituted housing and second it was a pointless change to the rule.
 
Not really pointless, as it would still allow the tubing from the TB to the MAF to be altered. For example in the case of my cars where the rubber hose from the TB turns very tight and has a numer of emissions tube holes, I will now be able to make a nice smooth alum tube of any varying diameter with none of the holes and can put a nice heat barrier on the outside.
 
So that would mean that you would be eliminating something that was in front of the throttle body that was more restrictive to air flow than the throttle body, correct?

That would seem to be the point of the change based on the language, including the tubing or housing the MAF is connected to.
 
>> That would seem to be the point based on the language

I totally disagree with that assumption.
 
Bill,

I will take what you say under consideration concerning the rule wording... But, just like calling a "wire" a "resistor", it's the competitors who are LOOKING for something to exploit who are turning common, ordinary language and turing it into something it's not... It doesn't matter what we write, they'll think it means something other than it actually does anyhow...

Build the freaking car straight up and outdrive me, for cripes sake... If you can't do that, I guess the next best thing is to try to find gray in the rules... :rolleyes:

Anyhow....

Ed, I know EXACTLY what the rule says, and what the intent was... I was part of the group that wrote the wording... If it's not simple and to the point enough for you, I can assure you that we will get that adjusted so there is NO question what it means... This isn't a matter of the language not being "clear", it's a matter of how twisted people can make clear language... resistor != wire, MAF != "that little sensor that unbolts from the housing"...

In case you didn't notice, I own and race a 240SX, and am very familiar with them and what make them go... If you think for a minute that I'd help write a rule that allows the 89-90 240SX to replace it's MAF with a larger unit, then you are seriously misinformed, because the MAF on this car is the ONLY reason this car is NOT in ITS...

In common terms, the MAF, or "air metering device", etc., must, by it's very nature and operational design, be the housing and all the electonics associated with it... If you order an MAF from the dealer, you will get the housing, etc., because that IS what the MAF or air metering device is... To say that "no", this is not the case, and that you can just take the little electonic sensor out and put it into a different housing, etc., is simple calling one part of the MAF something it is not.... an MAF...

When discussing this rule, we decided to leave the location of the MAF somewhat open, because it's location is restricted by the length of the stock wiring harness.. You are not allowed to alter the factory wiring harness. You are allowed to add a resistor. One rule cannot be used to perform an otherwise illegal function. Etc. ,etc....

I'll tell you what I'm going to propose to the ITAC to work on next season.... We are going to put together a list of definitions to be added to the GCR that will make this kind of BS a little tougher to do... Since it seems to be such a challenge to accept common language, we'll define some of this stuff for you...

No one would like to get the language of these rules more concise and accurate than me, but it appears that we need MORE language to help define some of the more common terms to help aid in that goal...

By the way... Just to try to support my point... If I go to the parts store, and look up a MAF for a 1990 Nissan 240SX... Here is what comes up:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....ype=473&ptset=A


1570196.jpg



I'd be happy to meet you in the protest shed, should yours look any different or be "modified" in any way... Enjoy... ;)
 
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