rules interpretations

so the concensus on this board is that the rule actually means "Any steering wheel that is attached in the original manner and without a quick release hub."?

Tom [/b]

Not me. Remove your steering wheel and replace it with another one. That new one could have a quick release...I just think that when you are allowed to replace something, the intent is to use the same method of attachment.

But that's the ST in me.

AB
 
1. Rules from one category have no impact on another. They can't. Talk about chaos.

2. If you believe a bolt-on QR is legal I don't see how you can claim a weld-on is illegal. Method of attachment is not spelled out in the rules. If a rule specifically allows something, but does not limit how you do it, IMHO it's the wild west - anything goes. I actually think it was Kirk who put that in my brain some 3 or 4 years ago.

The rules say I can use any steering wheel with the only limitation being no wooden steering wheels. So, let's say I want to use a 57 Chevy wheel on my E36 Bimmer just because I really like 57 Chevy steering wheels for some reason. Since the rules say any steering wheel, I say I can weld the 57 Chevy wheel to the E36 steering shaft. No modifier to the rule tells me I cannot. So IMHO attachment method is not an issue. The only issue is whether QRs are allowed or not and whether you consider them part of the way you attach the steering wheel.

If it says you can, you bloody well can within the further limitations given on how you can. In the case of this specific rule, there is NO limitation on how.

A few years ago I suggested the use of a Case Book for stews and techs. I still think this would be an outstanding tool. It's a way to deal with obsure interpretations w/o having to write a rule book the size of the Encyclopedia Britanica.

That's my personal view of this battle field.
 
***Again applying common sense one could say that a QR is spelled out in these classes and with a spec to top it off. So I fail to see how we make the common sense jump to them being allowed in IT.***

IMHJ a few people need to step back & ask themselves with some of Joe's common sense why the Q.R. is used with the ANY steering wheel RULE in any class. It sure as HELL ain't so that the owner can spend a couple hundred extra bucks on a Q.R. so his car don't look like joe's. Joe, tell me YOU can get in an ITA Miata without a Q.R. Better yet tell me you can get out of an ITA Miata in a hurry because of FIRE without a Q.R.

Why was/is the Q.R. implemented ?

The ONLY reason I implemented a bolt on Q.R. on my Miata is so that I can get in & out of the friken car. I was not into wasting $$$ on a Q.R. & steering wheel if I didn't need them.
 
Wow, remember the first thought here was about welding a QR spud . You guys are raggin at the wrong guy. I believe they are fine and should be allowed.

Geo, to say other rules sets have no bearing completely scares me that you have anything to doing with the construction of rules. Our rule says Steering wheels are free nothing more. It is pretty obvious that this has been a problem in other classes The stated rules and intent are much clearer in those cases. My point is if we want all these classes to be able to weld a spud to the shaft and allow a QR then all the classes should use the same wording to get there.

David, Yes I can get in and out of a SM without removing the wheel. The difference is I am only a fat middle aged dude you just a fat old man.......(kidding my friend)


Consistency is the key to making these things work.
 
Geo, to say other rules sets have no bearing completely scares me that you have anything to doing with the construction of rules. Our rule says Steering wheels are free nothing more. It is pretty obvious that this has been a problem in other classes The stated rules and intent are much clearer in those cases. My point is if we want all these classes to be able to weld a spud to the shaft and allow a QR then all the classes should use the same wording to get there.

[/b]

Sorry I scare you.

Having rules from one category affect another category is asking for chaos. It would scare me if I had to worry about what is written in another category spec to determine what is legal in IT. I race in IT and only worry about IT. Sure we may reference other category specs from time to time when we are writing a rule, but whatever is written in one category spec does not and should not affect the interpretation on another.

Using wording from another category spec can be useful for consistency in rule writing, and that I agree. It would certainly be nice to have consistency. But, at the current time under the current organization of the CRB and the advisory committees, I don't see rules written in one category spec being changed because the advisory committee of another category addressed an issue differently. I understand where you are going with this and I assure you I think more consistency would be a good thing, but there is nothing to assure it at this time.

[edit] Please note that where rules from one category affect another at this time, the rules in one category spec will specifically reference the other category spec.
 
Sorry I scare you.

Having rules from one category affect another category is asking for chaos. It would scare me if I had to worry about what is written in another category spec to determine what is legal in IT. I race in IT and only worry about IT. Sure we may reference other category specs from time to time when we are writing a rule, but whatever is written in one category spec does not and should not affect the interpretation on another.

Using wording from another category spec can be useful for consistency in rule writing, and that I agree. It would certainly be nice to have consistency. But, at the current time under the current organization of the CRB and the advisory committees, I don't see rules written in one category spec being changed because the advisory committee of another category addressed an issue differently. I understand where you are going with this and I assure you I think more consistency would be a good thing, but there is nothing to assure it at this time.

[edit] Please note that where rules from one category affect another at this time, the rules in one category spec will specifically reference the other category spec.
[/b]




Geo, I am not saying that we will apply the other classes rule. What I am saying is. If I protest your welded steering what ever it will be on the if it doesn't say you can rule. If it was to be allowed then it would have been spelled out and the fact that other catagories use a rule that allows this modification would confirm that there was no intent to allow this. I believe the court would have to say. The steering wheel is legal(any) but the attachment is not(welding) and the QR performs a function that is not specifically allowed in this rule. Again I could care less about any of it. How about you consider this a request to clean up the wording and bring it inline with other classes.

edit: Also Geo consider the SS rules I believe is a recent add to allow aftermarket wheels, there was a time when you had to use the stock seats. Our rules came from a SS basis and this may just be a left over from those days. Most all other catagories spell out that mods needed to fit free wheel are allowed. Now that I am sure I have seriouly pissed GA off i will go work on a car.
 
Geo, I am not saying that we will apply the other classes rule. What I am saying is. If I protest your welded steering what ever it will be on the if it doesn't say you can rule. If it was to be allowed then it would have been spelled out and the fact that other catagories use a rule that allows this modification would confirm that there was no intent to allow this. I believe the court would have to say. [/b]
Joe you used that naughty "i" word when talking about a ruling. As near as I can tell the only thing worse than reading intent into a rule is trying read intent based on a rule from another class. It opens the door to drastic changes in the allowed modifications without any direct control by the ITAC. Do you really think the CRB researches the effect of a rules change in one class on every other class? No, of course not, so why should we interpret the book that way?

edit: Also Geo consider the SS rules I believe is a recent add to allow aftermarket wheels, there was a time when you had to use the stock seats. Our rules came from a SS basis and this may just be a left over from those days. Most all other catagories spell out that mods needed to fit free wheel are allowed. Now that I am sure I have seriouly pissed GA off i will go work on a car.
[/b]
Along the same lines and just for arguments sake say the steering wheel rule in IT dates back to the original rules set. Furthermore the intent was to allow QR wheels so that fat old guys :) could cram themselves into festivas or whatever. At the time SS had no rules about steering wheels. Now jump forward ten years and suppose SS adds a rule about allowing alternate steering wheels but doesn't mention QR. By your interpretation the intent of the rule has just changed and thos fat old guys can no longer get in their cars. Now apply this to every rule across every category and we have anarachy. We already have enough to argue about with IT rules, do we need to drag SS, Touring, Prod, GT, AS, SM, FC, FF, FV, F500, FA, CSR, DSR, S2000, FSCCA, CF into this. And you think Greg Amy is tired of rules debates now? :D
 
Joe you used that naughty "i" word when talking about a ruling. As near as I can tell the only thing worse than reading intent into a rule is trying read intent based on a rule from another class. It opens the door to drastic changes in the allowed modifications without any direct control by the ITAC. Do you really think the CRB researches the effect of a rules change in one class on every other class? No, of course not, so why should we interpret the book that way?
Along the same lines and just for arguments sake say the steering wheel rule in IT dates back to the original rules set. Furthermore the intent was to allow QR wheels so that fat old guys :) could cram themselves into festivas or whatever. At the time SS had no rules about steering wheels. Now jump forward ten years and suppose SS adds a rule about allowing alternate steering wheels but doesn't mention QR. By your interpretation the intent of the rule has just changed and thos fat old guys can no longer get in their cars. Now apply this to every rule across every category and we have anarachy. We already have enough to argue about with IT rules, do we need to drag SS, Touring, Prod, GT, AS, SM, FC, FF, FV, F500, FA, CSR, DSR, S2000, FSCCA, CF into this. And you think Greg Amy is tired of rules debates now? :D
[/b]


Matt, As a stew you know I would have to go above you and the COA will rule on what is written. What is written says the steering wheel maybe replaced and that's all it says bud. No where can you show me a QR may be added. Fix the rule. Make it a rule that allows the car to go from SS to GT without any issue. I am not afraid to look at the Intent of any rule when you can clearly look around and say the intent needs to be changed or the words need to be fixed.
 
***I was a bit surprised by their comments that tack welding was okie dokey, which many of us felt was completely against the rules. But the thoughts were that allowing tack welds would save a lot of money and headaches, and were in keeping with category philosophy on those counts.***

Jake, is this the same group of people that let the costs of Production cars get out of control with their incremental CREEP ? :dead_horse:

[/b]

Dave, am I correct in reading that you are very unsatisfied with the results?

If so, why?

Let's say that the rule existed that allowed material change. Now, I don't have to remind you that the actions of an SB can be closely emulated using several materials, such as Delrin, but the expense of designing, and prototyping such parts is significantly more than merely installing a set of SBs.

And offset Delrin versions are as easy as centered ones, fab away.

So, the new rule really changes little, except it shortens the time spent under the car, and leaves more money in your pocket for gas to get to the track.

Show me how I have this confused, and what the downside is. I understand that changing rules can be bad, and can be called "creep"...but I don't think that the negative conotation fits in this case.

Show me otherwise if I misunderstood your post.
 
1. Rules from one category have no impact on another. They can't. Talk about chaos.

2. If you believe a bolt-on QR is legal I don't see how you can claim a weld-on is illegal. Method of attachment is not spelled out in the rules. If a rule specifically allows something, but does not limit how you do it, IMHO it's the wild west - anything goes. I actually think it was Kirk who put that in my brain some 3 or 4 years ago.
That's my personal view of this battle field.
[/b]

1. I disagree Geo. The CRB governs the rules across all categories. I think it reasonable to look to how the wording in other categories describe what you are trying to do. Is it not the least bit interesting that other categories specicially allow quick releases and sphrerical bearings, but IT doesn't?

2. I DO believe QR's are legal, but for the same reason that (before this new clarification) I think that the installation of SB's as bushings must NOT include a tack-weld (because it is a modification of the suspension), I think that welding the QR to the column would be a modification to the said column - and where does it say you can do that?

Again, I always err on the side of (what *I* perceive to be) legality. I have said that this will probably be the downfall to my Miata project...give a little no problem...give a lot of 'littles' could be the difference at the highest levels.

Here is my new question to the group (forgive me Dick):

Is it possible that all of these creative interpretations manifest themselves in our environment because nobody every protests? Just because I think the welding is outside the rules doesn't mean I would EVER protest such an item because it does not allow that driver to beat me unfairly...is that the root cause of all this evil? If it is, other organizations seeminly avoid this by policing the cars and drivers proactively, not retroactivly - or simply relying on its drivers to do it for them. And given our volunteer-based organization, I fail to see how we can move away from this environment.

Is this the best we can ever do?

AB
 
Andy, you don't knwo that welding is outside the rules. You have no right to say that it is. It may be your interpretation, but it's only that.

Remember, reasonable people may disagree. I don't believe attachment method is regulated in the ITCS. That said, I don't see where QRs are specifically allowed, so that IMHO comes down to interpretation. But as long as I can use any steering wheel (except wooden), and there is no limitation on installation method, I say I can weld.

IMHO if QRs are legal, method of attachment doesn't matter. Also, if QRs are illegal, method of attachment doesn't matter.

Regarding other category specs, I personally think it ludicrous to think you must read other category specs to interpret legallity of an item unless it's specifically spelled out. As an IT racer I should NEVER have to be concerned about any other category spec but the ITCS.
 
Andy, you don't knwo that welding is outside the rules. You have no right to say that it is. It may be your interpretation, but it's only that.

[/b]

George,

Where did I say anything other that "I think" or "I do believe"?



AB
 
Joe, first off I'll bet this ol man weighs less per inch of height that a fat middle aged dude from Oregon city, OR. Ya didn't answer my question in the other post middle aged dude. Why has the Q.D. connect came into play at the get go ?

Dude, this p.m. I made & applied a FOM manufacture logo for my steering wheel & a FOM manufacture logo for my bolt on Q.D. Then I tack welded the steering wheel to the bolt on Q.D. & now BINGO I have an any steering wheel. Have a :birra: on that legal deal.

***Consistency is the key to making these things work.***

This ^ is copied from Joe & I also beleive in consistency through out all the class rules.

The roll cage side protection in Fastrack for March response to the looser FOM Dewhurst was a deal where I requested that the IT side protection rule be the same exact written words as the Production roll cage side protection rule so that the transission from IT to Production would be simpler. We can't have consistency because some people can not read the rules as they are written. Write another letter, not on your life. Topeka can't read.

Jake, you are correct that I didn't like the any Bushing material response from Topeka. For the rum dumbs that don't understand this kind of response from Topeka it is so those in Topeka pi$$ off the least number of high rollers. BUT, the Topeka response is at least consistent because with more of these kind of response IT will have consistently traveled the same route that Production has. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but during repair I will be under the car a shorter amount of time & have more money for gas to the track. :wacko: Please give me a break. Oh I'm sorry I was reading the party line.

Within the next couple days I'll start a new thread on IT/SM/SS roll cage side hoops passing through the dash & I'll ask some questions about what can & can not be modified during the implementation process.
 
I agree with Geo that any system of attachment of the free steering wheel is acceptable. It's the modification of the steering shaft that makes the weld-on option a non-starter in my eyes - a move for which there is NO allowance in the rules. "Easy" makes NO difference (unless I missed that clause in the ITCS). Neither does "cheaper" - ditto. Clamp it on, glue it on, or stick it on there with a big ol' neodymium magnet. Just be able to demostrate that the shaft has not been altered.

We are SO going to regret the "spot weld" allowance on the A-arms, before too long. Seriously. That is a blindingly bad horse of an idea, that's now well and truly out of the barn door. A week ago, I think that even the pro-SB crowd agreed that we couldn't change the arm to faciliate installation of the not-a-bushing. Now? We can weld. When "spot" starts to grow and requires a glossary definition and a thread all its own, we're one little step closer. Can I use more than one spot weld? 20? A huge number of spot welds that almost touch one another around the periphery of the bearing shell? Twice that many, that actually touch one-another? Can I put a spot weld between the bearing and another piece of steel, that is subsequently spot welded to the arm?

WHY is this dynamic so hard for people to accept as possible? Is it because you actually WANT the IT rules to become more lenient - to allow you to make more and more changes to your cars?

K
 
Why has the Q.D. connect came into play at the get go ?[/b]

David my friend please read the whole thread, I got sucked into a stupid argument that has no real meaning other than our rules blow.


Geo, you have far less right to say that welding is legal than Andy has to say it isn't. No where in that stupid rule does it say you can weld it. At least Andy can use the IIDSYC rule what do you have on your side? You my not care to read other class rules but here is the facts they have meaning and they will come into play in a protest. I think that as a ITAC member you should not be so quick to discount the writing and meaning of other class rules, You just may learn something from them. It is obvious to me in reading them that there is a reason SS spelled out means of attachment is open.
 
Is it possible that all of these creative interpretations manifest themselves in our environment because nobody every protests? Just because I think the welding is outside the rules doesn't mean I would EVER protest such an item because it does not allow that driver to beat me unfairly...is that the root cause of all this evil? If it is, other organizations seeminly avoid this by policing the cars and drivers proactively, not retroactivly - or simply relying on its drivers to do it for them. And given our volunteer-based organization, I fail to see how we can move away from this environment.[/b]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head Andy. This is a case where self-policing doesn't work. It's because some things, while a violation of the written rules, are deemed to have no impact on the performance of the car. Plenty of people thump their chest and talk about chicken-shit protests and settling things 'on the track' (by driving, not by intentionally hitting someone). We need an independent organization w/ no vested interest, to enforce the rules. IMO, that's what the stewards should be doing. Problem is, you've got stewards who are friends w/ or related to drivers. Even worse, you've got some stewards that have an axe to grind w/ some drivers.

Just like we have an objective process for classifying and spec'ing cars, we need an objective process to police the cars, and apply the rules. I actually like the new rule about checking things in impound.

I do agree though, we'll never change the culture that we have.
 
Geo, you have far less right to say that welding is legal than Andy has to say it isn't. No where in that stupid rule does it say you can weld it. At least Andy can use the IIDSYC rule what do you have on your side? [/b]

The fact that the rule allows any steering wheel with the only restriction give being no wooden wheels. There is NO restriction given on mounting method. We'll just have to disagree.

You my not care to read other class rules but here is the facts they have meaning and they will come into play in a protest. I think that as a ITAC member you should not be so quick to discount the writing and meaning of other class rules, You just may learn something from them. It is obvious to me in reading them that there is a reason SS spelled out means of attachment is open.
[/b]

Joe, what I'm saying is that you CANNOT use rules written in other category specs to justify ANY position in the ITCS. They are independent of each other.

I absolutely CANNOT believe any point made in protest or appeal based upon language in a different category spec would not be summarily thrown out.


[edit] The text below was in response to another related discussion and was meant as a separate reply, but the new software lumped everything together.

Bill and Andy, I cannot say I disagree with you about varying interpretations being due to the lack of protests.

Your comments seem to suggest to me you think it's because people think they can get away with it. I'm sure that happens in every category, including at the Runoffs. However, when protests are made and appeals filed, legality becomes established. IMHO it's less a matter of getting away with something than it is simple getting a bloody ruling.
 
You know Kirk, when the discussion on the SBs happened, lots of views came out.

First, the historical view of the CRB, (the ruling body, as opposed to the ITAC which is the advisory body.... as you know, but perhaps others don't) was that SBs were fine. I think most of us on the con call from the ITAC were on that side of the fence.

Now, I know that at least 5 of us on the ITAC felt that any modification of the the arms or mounts was flat not legal. And I commented that most of the guys I knwe were under the same operating procedure.

What about glue I was asked, and I said, not a modification. Nope...wrong there, I was told certain glues bond molecularly. And that modifies the part. (Or something to that effect). There was discussion on that and the definition of "modify", too.

Ok....I started thinking about tack welds and I asked, "then what about somebody welding a plate on one side as a "retainer" that also happens to reinforce an A arm"? Not legal, clearly any tech inspector would know thats more than a tack weld was the reply. A definition of a "tack weld" was suggested, but defining it in such a way as to fit all the possible applications is pretty tricky. And lets not forget, certain "Cassettes" could be made to strenghten the part they attach too as well, but agin, they will run afoul of the prohibited function clause.

Back to the past for a second.

13 years ago, I had these tricky little Delrin things that replicated SBs on my RX-7. They certainly fit the rule as written, but they sure weren't easy to make, and in the event of damage, to repair or replace either. But according to my investigation at the time (a call to a friend on the CRB) they were legal, and they were as effective as SBs.

7 years later, my new car had SBs, held in place via some lathe turned spacers and bits, and sure enough, I lost one at the Glen quite a while ago. Dave Gran and I walked the track and found a couple parts of the whole assembly, but the tricky part was gone. So I tried to replace it. Nope....no longer made that way. Solution? Buy TWO new ones...complete setups, that is..actually 4 (two ends ea.) at a cost of hundreds, or find a machine shop and have the bit custom made. (I know, you pick your horse....)

Point of both of those items is that the actions of a SB were in place and legal, from the begining of the rule's writing..

Back to the present.....Even with that in mind, I tried to poke holes in the tack weld arguement, but the prevailing thought was that SBs were fine, and making competitors waste tons of money fabricating parts to replicate what a simple tack weld does was not in the best interests of the category.

I certainly see the point about a tack weld growing to a series of welds then to a seam, then to a reinforced gusset, and it is a reasonable concern.

But, the clause of performing an illegal function is there to stop that. Now, I hear the arguement that another load has been placed on the competitors back to police, and tech can't be trusted to make a good call, and so on, but I also hear the arguement that thousands of dollars won't be spent making widgets and cassettes and spacer devices to hold the SBs in place.

A few examples come to mind right away. A great ITA car that isn't built as often as you might think it should be is the 240SX. The rep on that car is that it is a tough, and expensive build, and it's kind of an all or nothing deal. If you don't do the rear suspension right, you have big problems. I wonder if the over a thou price on the rear arm mods is one of the factors that scares people off? Big savings on that car. Of course the rule isn't written for one car...it's just an example that popped into my head....it should benefit many others....faster builds, less expense, less time under the car, but no actual performance gain compared to the earlier rule.

I see the danger, but I also see the benefits. A tough call, but I think there is a good case for it.
 
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