Super Duper Double Ultra Cheap Isaac System

Originally posted by jhooten:
...Until you get past the club racing denial syndrome you could give them away and not all drivers would use them.

Agreed. This is what leads to mandates.

It very much depends on the type of racing. There are 14,500 road racers in the US but 135,000 oval trackers + 153,000 drag racers. Many of the oval series are beginning to mandate H&N restraints, but even where they are not required oval drivers are more accepting of them.

Thanks for the input.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Hi Alan, not to knock anyone who has a Hutchens style device, but I kind of see those as the type of restraint you wear when you are just trying to satisfy some Nascar rules. I know something is probably better than nothing, but when I see those devices on TV they always look like they would have a ton of slack in them. Seems like there is a lot of material there to stretch in an impact. I don't know, I guess when I see a Nascar dude who has loads of cash not buy the best and instead buy the cheapest, it kind of does the opposite of telling me "it may be cheaper, but I use it because it works". I've heard some of those same Nascar drivers mention something like "next year I'll be using the Hans" as well. I guess I have the feeling that Nascar drivers wear the Hutchens because it's the least they can do, and although I'm below that by using nothing, doing the least I can do for safety just doesn't sound cool. (Hypocritical ain’t I!)

The Hutchens did have my interest, but I thought it would just be better to see if I can save the money and get an Issac or a Hans. The other models with all their webing and straps just look kind of hokey to me. But if I can get an Issac for a similar price, well I just might be sold.
smile.gif


Ben.
 
Originally posted by benracin:
...I know something is probably better than nothing, but when I see those devices on TV they always look like they would have a ton of slack in them. Seems like there is a lot of material there to stretch in an impact.

In general, these designs work okay if they are kept very tight--not just low slack but actually preloaded. I've met several young racers on tight budgets who get good value by cranking these things down. They have also said, "I'd use an Isaac if it were cheaper." Hence this thread.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I've heard some of those same Nascar drivers mention something like \"next year I'll be using the Hans\" as well. I guess I have the feeling that Nascar drivers wear the Hutchens because it's the least they can do...</font>

It depends. Some use the Hutchens because it is the least they can do. Other use it because they don't like the HANS. Tony Stewart (who, I hear, is somewhat claustrophobic) switched from the Hutchens to the HANS and back to the Hutchens. Other stock car drivers stay away from the HANS because they can't get it past the head surrounds when they need to bail.

From a convenience standpoint, one of the reasons we see drivers leaving the Hutchens-style products is that it is restrictive. That is especially an issue with oval trackers who, between multiple practice sessions, qualifying and racing in the same day, are always getting in and out of the car. You can't peel down your suit to cool off if the webbing is in the way--not a trivial issue if you are talking Florida in August.

But if I can get an Issac for a similar price, well I just might be sold.

Ben.

It sounds like $150 is a no-brainer (but can't happen) and $500 is a maybe.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
If you could do an Issac system for $500 I'd buy one tomorrow. But I don't know how you could make it cheaper without losing something.
 
Originally posted by Joe Camilleri:
If you could do an Issac system for $500 I'd buy one tomorrow. But I don't know how you could make it cheaper without losing something.

Joe,

You would lose something. This design is less expensive because is uses simpler components. That's fine, but the simplicity also reduces its effectiveness. It should perform at a level between the webbing products and the Isaac/HANS products.

The single best measure of the performance of any H&N restraint is percentage head load reduction (HLR) for a given crash protocol. In general, webbing-based products such as the Hutchens, Simpson/D-Cel, Wright, etc. offer HLR levels ranging between 45% and 75%. At the other end of the spectrum the Isaac system and HANS device offer HLR values that are virtually identical (if the HANS straps are not too loose) at 85%+.

We are estimating the HLR for this design concept to range between 65% and 75%.

So, yes, you are giving up some protection, but for many drivers it may be more than adequate. Considering some of the pricing you guys are suggesting, we're talking roughly 75% of the performance at 50% of the cost.

It's not a Lamborghini, it's a Yugo.

We are very proud that our designs will protect drivers to loads of over 100Gs, but if drivers are dying at 30Gs because they can't afford an Isaac system, perhaps we should stop patting ourselves on the back long enough to do something about it.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by gsbaker:
We are very proud that our designs will protect drivers to loads of over 100Gs, but if drivers are dying at 30Gs because they can't afford an Isaac system, perhaps we should stop patting ourselves on the back long enough to do something about it.
[/B]

I'm glad someone thinks that way!!!
smile.gif


(PS - and so are my wife and mother)

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[This message has been edited by 924Guy (edited October 04, 2004).]
 
First, I assume that the new design would be along the same damper concept as the rest of the line. If not, that would be a serious problem.

Lets face it guys, there is no such thing as "too much" H&N protection, but.......there sure is such a thing as "too little"! Like none! At our speeds, I would wager a device that operated at the 70% HLR level would be more than adequate in 99.6% of our crashes that are of a "significant" level. Something..anything.. IS better than nothing, and we should remember that we are not crashing at NHRA or IRL speeds.

Therefore, such a system should prove a huge succcess, and would protect MOST drivers in MOST situations better, for less money, than the web based systems.

Also, keep in mind that those web systems flat wear out, and need to be adjusted correctly every single use, or they are as good as useless...

I'm thinking $395, but that might not be the number that sells 'em like hotcakes! To do that they should sell for the cost of one race entry, around $200, but having one priced so low might hurt your credibility.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 04, 2004).]
 
hey David-

What two shocks (dampers) do you recommend I put on my system? And where do I put them? How long should they be?

Let me know so I can start building!

Oh....and also, if it's not too much trouble, could you perhaps provide some documentation? Things like the calculations...or hey...even better, how 'bout some real live crash test data? I'd feel sooo much better if I knew how it would perform when I put it together....

wink.gif


But hey...maybe I'm just a little nervous these days!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Jake, do ya think I thought of all your stated items before I posted.
wink.gif
The difference between my post & the others is that I posted what I was thinking. Gregg is a neat guy (met him a couple years ago) but that will not stop me from asking the question.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
Monroe gas-matic vs. Moton

Just thinking out loud-dangerous, I know.

Jim



[This message has been edited by its66 (edited October 05, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Why do two flo controled skocks with brackes cost the end user $900 ?

Have Fun
wink.gif

David

Or, why does some Kevlar laid up in a mold that's already paid for from a company that's had most of its R&D subsidized by GM and DaimlerChrysler cost the end user $900, or $1,200 if the mold is shaped for a formula driver?

Or (here's my favorite), why does a webbing assembly made in China which includes dog leash material cost the end user $250-$450?

Answer: It has nothing to do with the cost of physical production and everything to do with volume, R&D and lawyers.

If you think this is bad, try the medical industry. The present cost to develop a new pill is $500 million, with no guarantee that it will work and no guarantee the FDA will approve it if it does. If it doesn't, that's just too damn bad; you eat 1/2 a billion. If it does it will keep someone alive or out of a wheelchair or operating room, but you can be sure that same person is going to complain that their pill cost $3.

I was involved in the development of a medical product that had a 93% profit (contribution margin ratio for you accountants). We dropped it because it was not worth it.

If anyone has a better way to do this, please let us know.

We have the lowest profit margin in the industry, with the possible exception of Jay Wright.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

Edit: spelling is good.

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 05, 2004).]
 
Gregg,
I'm sure you realize that the folks on this forum are a minority of the club racers out there. Not only that, but I would venture to guess they are for the most part more technically inclined and safety conscious.

So, I try to answer the question from the point of view of many of the guys I race with. With that in mind, I think you would be pissing in the snow at a $500 price point. It is simply too much. You and I, and others on this board can pontificate about the importance of safety, $10 helmet/$10 head, yada, yada, yada, till the cows come home.

It's not going to change the market out there. Which is all about perceived value and price. We are a nation of walmart shoppers looking for the blue light special in every aspect of our lives.

Lets take a look at how the "typical" person does the "value math" in their head. "Restraint system" hmmmm, I can buy a full set of belts (restraint system) for $120 nowadays. Head and neck "restraint" system = $700. That math just does not work. Let's take it a bit further. Belts = a bunch of webbing, some buckles, latches, hardware etc. $120. H&N system = some small cables, a couple little shocks, and some hardware. $700... THAT math really doesn't work.

Being in business for a number of years now, specifically product development and new business start-ups. I'm painfully aware of the costs associated with product development. But the bottom line is, the customer doesn't care. It's not their problem (I know you realize this, just making the point).

If you want to sell more h&n systems to this group of people, one of three things need to happen:
1. They have a serious wreck that serves as a wake up call.
2. One of their close friends has a serous wreck that serves as a wake up call.
3. The price point is "reasonable", such that it is not an agonizing financial decision any more. "ok, might as well get an h&n now that they are down to $200".
All the graphs, and data, and technical mumbo jumbo are not going to sell quantities of this product.

We are a short attention span, what's in it for me, materialistic, high shock value, instant gratification society these days. A society who learns best visually. Want to sell more of your existing h&n system? Make a mobile sled test demo trailer, and take it to the major events.

You need to "shock" people into understanding the seriousness of this issue. Graphs, data tables, pictures, videos etc are not enough. It needs to be in their face. They need to see, in person, that dummy slamming its head on the steering wheel. With this approach, you capture them in their environment. It becomes real for them, they can imagine themselves as the dummy. Yes, I know there is issues with costs, staffing, and access to events. But it was a thought.

As far as differentiating this new, less expensive product as being "slightly less effective". I might be a bit uncomfortable with that type of marketing strategy. Again, keep in mind your audience (not the people on this board). They tend to view an h&n system as either being "good enough", or not. If you come out with a $400 system that "maybe" "slightly less effective" (dependant on the situation) then the $700 system. They are likely to view the $400 system as "good enough" and write off your $700 system as price gouging.

I realize you can justify the price/performance differentiation with technical data, but there is just too much gray area here, and "black magic" for the average person. They just don't care about this percentage or that percentage. In their mind, it is either "good enough" for "most situations" or it is not. They want to buy a "reasonably priced" h&n system, that works "good enough", under "most circumstances".

From a business stand point, what it really comes down to I suppose, is the opportunity costs associated with bringing the lower cost system to market. If the design is in the can, and the costs to bring the thing to market and support are next to nothing. Then I suppose the incremental sales of the lower cost model might be worth it. However, if the costs are objectionable, you may be better off allocating those resources towards selling more of your existing system. Particularly if you envision the new system stealing sales from the existing one.

Wayne
 
Wayne,

You make some excellent points.

Originally posted by Wayne:
You need to "shock" people into understanding the seriousness of this issue. Graphs, data tables, pictures, videos etc are not enough. It needs to be in their face. They need to see, in person, that dummy slamming its head on the steering wheel.

This is why we don't get excited about posting crash videos on the net. People get bogged down trying to analyze every last piece of minutae and they miss the point.

And "the point" is every bit as impressive as you imply--probably more so. I recall the first time I witnessed a live crash test, standing about 20 feet from the impact area. It is amazingly violent. I have witnessed several and they still send a chill up my spine.

And, yes, it needs to be up close and personal. We had a large spike in orders from the West Coast this week because of the deaths at Thunderhill last Friday, but normal activity from everywhere else.

It's sad, but we can always tell when there has been a racing fatality over the weekend: our Web site traffic will spike up 500%-1,000%.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
I REALLY like the portable sled idea. It wouldn't even have to be fully instrumented, just enough so that it would show the loads in the head/neck and the acceleration speeds. Beyond that, the visual of the body, arms, head, and everything else flailing around should show them what can really happen, even if it is only from 35 mph.

Heck, if they argued with the way the test was setup, they could get in there, set up the dummy's restraints themselves, then watch the test run. Only problem is, the test happens so quickly, you'd need to record it at high speed, then slow it down and watch the video...

I might have to kick this idea around a little next week.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

{edit: spelled there with one of its homonyms}

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited October 08, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I REALLY like the portable sled idea...

Heck, if they argued with the way the test was setup, they could get in there...

I might have to kick this idea around a little next week.

Bill, dear readers, has seen our crash videos. (Someone remind me to bring them to the ARRC. Not as effective as a live test, but still entertaining.)

Okay Bill, I'm going to let a little cat out of the bag, but only because you are going to spend some grey matter thinking about this subject.

Ready? Here it is: We have given very serious thought to building an abbreviated, low impact "crash sled" that real drivers can ride. We're talking something that generates 5, maybe 10Gs tops. Gravity powered.

We got the idea after an Isaac user (my SCCA instructor in fact) dove into the tires at Sebring. It was a big enough jolt to feel, but small enough that he was not in panic mode and was able to notice everything. He said it was the most bizzare sensation--very "soft". Then he suggested I try it! See the second entry here:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages...rsComments.html

There is no way I'm going to strap myself into a 50G sled, but a 5G sled would be very interesting.

The problem is dragging it around the country. The PRI show, however, will be in Orlando next year.
biggrin.gif


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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

Edit: double bold

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 08, 2004).]
 
Funny you should mention that. Every year at the McCormick Place Chicago Car Show, the Sheriff or State Police have a sled, gravity powered, that lets people experience a low g impact. That would probably be perfect for you, if you swapped in a real racing seat and harness versus the normal seat and 3-point belt.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Gregg -

There's already a thread re: the November FasTrack, but no mention of this little goodie;

D. Head and neck restraint systems such as
HANS are recommended. These systems shall
be mounted per the manufacturer's recommendations and shall not violate the single latch requirement (emphasis added) of the occupant restraint system.

You've GOT to view this as a victory, no?

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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
 
Originally posted by planet6racing:
Funny you should mention that. Every year at the McCormick Place Chicago Car Show, the Sheriff or State Police have a sled, gravity powered, that lets people experience a low g impact. That would probably be perfect for you, if you swapped in a real racing seat and harness versus the normal seat and 3-point belt.

Really? You mean we can buy the rig out of the box? Not that fabricating one would be a problem...

Oh yeah: frontal, offset frontal and lateral impacts with full harness and racing seat, and let racers try it with no H&N restraint, an Isaac system and a HANS device.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
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