The protest thread carry over from ITC

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 06:43 PM
So tell me George, what happened to the officials in question?

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Hey, this is Texas.

We took him out back and hung him.

Bill, I don't know. I would never know. I do know that we lodged a properly prepared offical protest. The protest was heard and ruled in our favor. It's on record.

Again, we have folks here who are officials. Perhaps they can comment on how officials are sanctioned. Exactly what happens to them is none of my business.

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 31 2005, 07:57 PM
Hey, this is Texas.

We took him out back and hung him.

Bill, I don't know.  I would never know.  I do know that we lodged a properly prepared offical protest.  The protest was heard and ruled in our favor.  It's on record.

Again, we have folks here who are officials.  Perhaps they can comment on how officials are sanctioned.  Exactly what happens to them is none of my business.

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Actually George, I think it would definately be your business. Unless you take the attitude that you don't care what else happens, as long as you 'win' your protest. There are automatic penalty points that are assessed against a driver's license, based on the result of the protest. Are there similar penalty points assigned to stewards/officials?

 

[dickita15]

I am sure the steward was penalized two positions.

seriously if an official oversteps his position and like in a driver to driver situation you do not get the proper answer in a face to face discussion you can protest. think of it as arbitration. a ruling on what the right thing is to do in the future. the officials can learn from such a decision. I guess so can the drivers.

as to penalty, the results of such actions are part of the peer review involved in officials licence reviews.

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller+Jan 1 2006, 04:45 AM-->

Are there similar penalty points assigned to stewards/officials?

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<!--QuoteBegin-dickita15@Jan 1 2006, 04:45 AM
as to penalty, the results of such actions are part of the peer review involved in officials licence reviews.

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Bill, I thought I read something about this somewhere. A quick look through the GCR last night turned up nothing. Perhaps it was in a Fastrack that I read it, or perhaps it was a Margarita induced dream. Who knows? But I definitely thought I read something about officials being assessed penalty points against their license.

Dick, can you confirm this? Any stews here able to confirm or deny?

As for being my business or not Bill, I can see your point. However, our protest was not a vindictive one so I wasn't really concerned about fallout for the Chief Stew. I only wanted a good Q lap which I wasn't going to get.

In the end it taught me a lesson. Get a hot lap in early. I was trying to work on individual sections of track w/o having to get a single flier in - you know, trying to be systematic about this. Next time I go to a new track I'll try to get a flier in and then go back and try working the sections again and then another flier. It was just helping manage the track and traffic better. Sucked that I didn't get a good Q lap because I started at the back. Of course I had fun passing a lot of people but it would have been more fun to finish better.

 

[Bill Miller]

George,

I'm not saying it was or was not vindictive (nor should it be). But, when someone makes an incorrect decision, that costs me money, you can bet it's my business

 

[charrbq]

I'll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act. This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner. This happened during the opening laps of qualifying. The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend. Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy's driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver. Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend. The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won. The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well. This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely. At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow. Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him. Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

 

[lateapex911]

Or.....it's a case of throwing stones...then moving into a glass house.

Passing under yellow....it's not like noone knows that that's the classic "Throw the book at me move"....talk about having your pants down.!

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by charrbq@Jan 1 2006, 01:26 PM
I'll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act.  This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner.  This happened during the opening laps of qualifying.  The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend.  Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy's driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver.  Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend.  The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won.  The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well.  This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely.  At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow.  Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him.  Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

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Yet more evidence of just how broken the system is.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 1 2006, 02:47 PM
Or.....it's a case of throwing stones...then moving into a glass house.

Passing under yellow....it's not like noone knows that that's the classic "Throw the book at me move"....talk about having your pants down.!

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I agree 100% Jake. To appeal the severity of a penalty to it's max is fine by me...but be prepared for that same book to hit you in the head should you mess up.

Sorry to hear the IT driver is out of SCCA, seems a little like sour grapes to me. If you can dish it out, you had better be willing to take it.

AB

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 07:55 AM
George,

I'm not saying it was or was not vindictive (nor should it be).  But, when someone makes an incorrect decision, that costs me money, you can bet it's my business

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Since this is amateur racing, he didn't cost me any money. Sure I lost a few laps, and as a result a good Q lap, but that's it.

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 06:31 PM
Since this is amateur racing, he didn't cost me any money.  Sure I lost a few laps, and as a result a good Q lap, but that's it.

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Actually George, it did cost you money. You paid for track time that you didn't get.

 

[Jack Marr]

Originally posted by charrbq@Jan 1 2006, 01:26 PM
I'll give you an example of a steward getting censured and the repercussions of such an act.  This happened several years ago in SOWDIV.

A driver of an IT car was slammed by a driver of a larger car more aggressively driven at the apex of a corner.  This happened during the opening laps of qualifying.  The larger car had minor damage, but the IT driver was done for the weekend.  Feeling somewhat wronged, the IT driver protested the other guy's driving...quoting the GCR in the appropriate areas.

The offending driver was punished by the chief steward, but not to the satisfaction of the IT driver.  Did I forget to mention that the IT driver was also a race steward, just not that weekend.  The IT driver appealed for a stiffer penalty and won.  The chief steward was admonished and reprimanded by the appeals court for, basically, not doing his job well.  This series of events was, of course, published in Fast Track for all to see.

Victory for the IT driver...not completely.  At a later race, the IT driver made the mistake of passing under the yellow.  Resulting penalty by the same chief steward was having the book thrown at him.  Our IT guy appealed the severity of the penalties, but had even more issued him as the court had noticed a pattern forming.

Final result was the IT driver has now left the SCCA, and the steward holds one of the top positions at the Runoffs.

Draw from it what you want, just an example of what might happen if you get sideways with a race steward. <_<

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I am familiar with this tale, but you assume wrongdoing on the part of a Steward where there is none...

I am working from memory, but as I recall in both incidents it was not the Chief Steward who handed out the punishment, it was the SOM. I doubt it was the same group at both races. The same CS may have been at both but other than send the case to the SOM to start with, he was not involved with the final result.

This driver leaving SCCA was not retaliation for "getting sideways" with the Chief Steward. He left as a result of his actions following the second incident at TWS-a rather blatent full bore pass under yellow that either resulted in hitting a parked car or a near miss. When he didn't get special treatment because he was a Steward, the driver threw a temper tantrum-writing defamatory letters about various Stewards, threatening lawsuit, etc.

He was a nice guy, but he had no one to blame but himself.

 

[RSTPerformance]

I have been away for at least a week or so.. so I may be out of date and not up to speed.... My Girlfriend is trying to restrict my IT.com time as she thinks I am an addict.... but whatever she is in the other room

First off I am disapointed yet again by people speaking about scca's broken system. This website is a huge influence on new members, and I hate to see negative press, but whatever it is some peoples feelings, and no matter what nobody or organization can please everyone... but we can try our hardest now for the "rest of my story/rant."

I see lots of talk about protests and what not.... I have been in the stewards program now for a while, I was an SOM at just about every race in the Northeast this past year, and I learned A LOT. I reflected on a lot also once the season ended, and I think that it will all cary over to next year. One of the most important thing that I learned is that most protests can be made good, it really depends on who the stewards are and who the protester and protestees are. I think in the best scenario is that all people are happy when they leave and look back on the experience... each experience SHOULD be a learning experience for ALL parties, the proteter, the protestee, and the SOM's and any peers to anyone who might be getting "part" of the story. I guess my goal in being a steward is to try and keep the fun for everyone, and I think for the most part that is the goal of all the stewards.

A couple side notes...

First: If you think that the system is failing then put in the effort and seek out joining the stewards program.

Second: If you think that a steward is not making the best decisions, talk to them, and if that gets you nowhere (and it verywell could) then talk to other stewards. Stewards are reviewed each year by thier peers, and I think with that they grow. Most of the stewards I know are successfull real life people, who can take constuctive critisism and grow from it. Remember that not everyone has the same goals and objectives.

Now in closeing
If anyone needs help with protests or dealing with rules at an event, please come and see me, I wold be glad and happy to help. This means that noone in the Northeast can every say that someone wont help them. I will, and I think just about anyone else in the Northeast will help also. If anyone has an issue with something that I may or may not rule in the future, please talk to me about it. I really would love to make everyone happy, however I know that will never be possible. I am certainly open to view others point of view and do my best.

Good Luck and have a great 2006 racing season!!!

Raymond " I didn't want to post, but I want people to be sure that they know the Northeast doesn't or shouldn't have any members with these negative feelings, and if someone does they should talk to someone off line about it, as thier are plenty of people that will try to help you" Blethen

 

[charrbq]

Originally posted by Jack Marr@Jan 2 2006, 03:43 AM
I am familiar with this tale, but you assume wrongdoing on the part of a Steward where there is none...

I am working from memory, but as I recall in both incidents it was not the Chief Steward who handed out the punishment, it was the SOM. I doubt it was the same group at both races. The same CS may have been at both but other than send the case to the SOM to start with, he was not involved with the final result.

This driver leaving SCCA was not retaliation for "getting sideways" with the Chief Steward. He left as a result of his actions following the second incident at TWS-a rather blatent full bore pass under yellow that either resulted in hitting a parked car or a near miss. When he didn't get special treatment because he was a Steward, the driver threw a temper tantrum-writing defamatory letters about various Stewards, threatening lawsuit, etc. 

He was a nice guy, but he had no one to blame but himself.

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Thanks, Jack. I heard a lot of it second hand as I wasn't at either race. Some of what I heard came from the offending IT driver. I knew the pass was blatant, but not that any near misses were involved. Nor that there was a lot of screaming for special treatmen. I was aware of some bad blood between the two stewards. That was common knowledge.
Sorry guys, I didn't know the whole story. My bad.

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 05:40 PM
Actually George, it did cost you money.  You paid for track time that you didn't get.

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Sunk cost. The SCCA doesn't charge by the lap.

I wasn't even upset at the reduced track time. I was upset that I didn't get a good Q lap in. I now know to try to get at least something in early, despite whatever systematic approach I may be going in with.

Don't worry, I'm not absolving any officials of blame here. I'm just not upset about it.

 

[Bill Miller]

Well Raymond, since I'm one of the people that says the system is broken, I feel that your comments are somewhat directed at me. Go read Jake et al's "A protest story" again, as well as some of the other anecdotal accounts, and tell me that the system isn't broken.

I think in the best scenario is that all people are happy when they leave and look back on the experience...

Nothing personal, but that's a pretty naive viewpoint, IMHO. If that's the way a protest ends up, there's a good chance that you didn't need a protest to begin with. I would imagine that a large portion of protests are filed because people couldn't come to some kind of resolution prior to the filing of a protest.

To think that everyone is going to come away from a protest over illegal parts, or rough driving, w/ a smile on their face and a song in their heart, shows a lack of understanding of the overall climate. By its very nature, the protest process is an adversarial one. The result is going to cost somebody something. I doubt that you're going to see them sitting down at the beer party together.

Noble goals Raymond, but unfortunately not very realistic. There will always be cheaters in racing, that's a fact. The protest process is the formal way that we deal with it. If it doesn't work, it will be little or no deterent to people that will break the rules.

 

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 2 2006, 12:31 PM

To think that everyone is going to come away from a protest over illegal parts, or rough driving, w/ a smile on their face and a song in their heart, shows a lack of understanding of the overall climate.  By its very nature, the protest process is an adversarial one.  The result is going to cost somebody something.  I doubt that you're going to see them sitting down at the beer party together.

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Bill,

.... I couldn't have said it any better. And to reflect on what you said: I even extended my hand in friendship to someone that I had an encounter with and guess what? The person did it again .... LOL

.... I guess it goes back to the old saying: A dog can't change their spots.

.... Rick

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 2 2006, 07:31 AM
Well Raymond, since I'm one of the people that says the system is broken, I feel that your comments are somewhat directed at me.  Go read Jake et al's "A protest story" again, as well as some of the other anecdotal accounts, and tell me that the system isn't broken.

Well, Bill, this is an area that we differ, and it's probably just semantics. If one incident here and there is enough to call it broken, then fine, but I think things go right and we never hear about it...often.

if you asked me Saterday night after the meetings I had to hear the outcome of our protest, I would have agreed in a nanosecond that we had "issues", LOL.

But.......then we had a verdict at a later date.

The result? A guy who was suddenly setting track records was found to have domed pistons, and it was rather public.

Since then, he has been to the track twice as far as I know, but hasn't showed the same speed, due to engine failures, I've been told.

The protest acheived it's goals, and actually over acheived in some ways.

And...read between the lines on this one, if I submitted the same protest at the same event a year later, the result would have been different...much different. Read back the thread to comments made by our officials for an insight.

To my eye, the system had a failure, and has since learned and improved. Sure. it would have been better if it worked right the first time, but the key, I think, is the dramatic improvements made since then. I would not call the system broken, at least around here.

Nothing personal, but that's a pretty naive viewpoint, IMHO.  If that's the way a protest ends up, there's a good chance that you didn't need a protest to begin with.  I would imagine that a large portion of protests are filed because people couldn't come to some kind of resolution prior to the filing of a protest.......Noble goals Raymond, but unfortunately not very realistic.  There will always be cheaters in racing, that's a fact.  The protest process is the formal way that we deal with it.  If it doesn't work, it will be little or no deterent to people that will break the rules.

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Agreed....a protest that ends in smiles is one that was a clarification issue pre arranged between two interested parties.

BUT! Be that as it may, I find Raymonds angle refreshing, and his offer to help racers with advice to be one that we should all take him up on.

We need more racers who work, and workers who race. A steward with a strong racing background is a great thing!

 

[RSTPerformance]

I recognize that it is hard to make everyone walk away from a protest smiling, but I think it is a goal that I will keep. I have sceen many protests...

some that could have resulted in all parties being happy, but mistakes were probably made

A lot where all parties were actually happy and learned, simply because all the drivers recognized they made a mistake (Both the accused and the accusing make mistakes)

I have also been to protests where not everyone was happy, but I am sure that when all was said and done and the upset persons went home and reflected and probably thought, yeah I'm a bonehead

I have also seen protests where drivers were completely ignorate of the people around them and thought only of themselves, without any respect for others efforts to just have fun. That probably covers most of the people that are not happy when the leave the protest.

And most rarely but most frequently talked about and publisized are the protests where someone gets screwed because of some sort of breakdown. I hope that my words can influence most to realize that is NOT the norm (especially in the Northeast). I can't speak for other areas, as I have sceen people get screwed in other regions by other stewards, but I would expect that isn't the norm otherwise SCCA wouldn't be the best Sports Car Club in America.



It is also very true that most protests go unherd. At every race I was an SOM, just when you thought the day was over and you wouldn't have any protests... you got one. They happen a lot, most people are probably embarassed at the mistake and others respect that someone else learned from the mistake thierfor it goes unherd.

Raymond

Edit: PS: I agree, MOST protests are unecessary in the end...

 

[JLawton]

Raymond,
Don't feel bad for being an optimist. Optimists are the ones responsible for improvements to the system.

I know that most guys in the North East appreciate having a steward that understands racers!!