rules interpretations

[tom91ita]

snip...The rule says I may replace the steering wheel. Is it not reasonable to use any common method of attachment?
[/b]

i am afraid i am on the side that says that we can attach the steering wheel any way we want to.

the rule states "Any steering wheel except wood rimmed types may be used."

This is NOT the same as "The steering wheel may be replaced."

I think it is a tortured interpretation to say that it means that the method of attachment must be the same or they would have said "Any steering wheel except wood rimmed types may be used providing it uses the original attachment method."

not all steering wheels have the same attachment means and since i can use "Any", i can attach it 'any' way i need to.

regrets, tom

 

[ddewhurst]

***I was a bit surprised by their comments that tack welding was okie dokey, which many of us felt was completely against the rules. But the thoughts were that allowing tack welds would save a lot of money and headaches, and were in keeping with category philosophy on those counts.***

Jake, is this the same group of people that let the costs of Production cars get out of control with their incremental CREEP ?


Dick, I just installed a new steering wheel & BOLT ON Q.D. to my Spec Miata.

 

[Joe Harlan]

9. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk
............
b. Any steering wheel except wood rimmed types may be used.
Any shift knob may be used.[/b]

I am still looking for the part that says a quick release is legal?

I do agree that when the original rules for this kind of stuff was written it was probably never considered that half of thise stuff would even be considered either pro or con... rough call.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

I wonder if some of the same logic used for valve guides and steering wheels were applied to the 'shift knobs may be replaced' would get you a shiny new short shifter?

the rule states "Any steering wheel except wood rimmed types may be used."

This is NOT the same as "The steering wheel may be replaced."[/b]

I fail to see the difference.

AB

 

[tom91ita]

snip..

I fail to see the difference.

AB
[/b]

somethings are implied whether we want to accept it or admit it.

i wasn't speaking about replacing the steering column only the means of fastening the steering wheel to it. if someone wants to weld a metal shift knob to the shift linkage, that should be fine. or even glue it or bolt it or pin it.

"Dead pedal/foot rest and heel stop may be added." presumably in the driver's foot well and not in the back of the car correct?

"Two way radios are permitted." both the installation and use, correct? the radios can be connected to power from the car, right?

ballast must be removable to be weighed and be attached with a minimum of two bolts, etc. how about tack-welding the ballast in like the spherical "bearings" because the tack welds can be cut with a grinder.

why not just weld the ballast in completely? now its the level of difficulty to remove that we could debate.

any DOT tire is permitted. can i change tire pressures from stock? can i use pure nitrogen instead of air?

there has to be some sense of reasonableness on our side and some of it is self-policing through the use of community norms that develop even through the use of these forums, etc..

tom

 

[Joe Harlan]

Tom, While I agree in part I ask again can you point me to the spot that says quick release hubs are legal? I know in other classes it specifically allows them?

 

[zracre]

This is silly!

ITCS-13 9. b. Any steering wheel except wood trimmed types may be used. Any shift knob may be used.

puh leeze! If the steering wheel is a quick release type and requires a hub adapter to be welded on, c'mon dude! Its a steering wheel and safety item for some in smaller cars. This is CLUB RACING...that is rule torture! there is no performance advantage and it says you can replace the wheel. The wheel attaches with a bolt. Hardware is open. Bolt replaced with a blob of weld. Ha!!

 

[Knestis]

The point at which "tortured interpretation" became a synonym for "strict interpretation" is the point at which we went completely 'round the bend.

If I can weld a little on my steering shaft and A-arms, can I weld a little more? Can I weld a lot? Can I put some metal on that arm, other than wire? It's the same thing, only easier. Can I grind before I weld? Gotta have a clean surface. Can I cut a little? Can I cut a little more?

Sure. Okay, I guess. It IS the same thing. Of course! Hmm - don't see why not. Sure - what the heck.

Can I put back some metal that I cut off? Cool - here's my hand-fabricated, custom A-arm.

That some of us don't even THINK that can happen is an indication that we haven't been paying attention. We think of TransAm now in terms of handmade, ground-up cars but when the series started it wasn't a hell of a long way from what IT is now. Reinforced suspension components became lightened components, which got "interpreted" into lightened-away, reinforced air components = custom bits.

LEARN from our past mistakes.

K

 

[tderonne]

Where does this "if it isn't a performance advantage it's ok" logic come from?

Certainly not the GCR.
GCR 13.4:
In the event a car is found in non-compliance, a claim that the non-compliant item(s) offer no performance advantage shall have no influence on any ruling.





And while I'm being a picky.

Why does everyone think fasteners are open?

They aren't. At least not everywhere. "Hardware items" are free in three areas: reciprocating engines, trans/final drive, and suspension mounting points.

Sure no one's going to loss a race because of a non-stock fender bolt, but per the GCR they could.

 

[zracre]

If I can weld a little on my steering shaft and A-arms, can I weld a little more? Can I weld a lot? Can I put some metal on that arm, other than wire? It's the same thing, only easier. Can I grind before I weld? Gotta have a clean surface. Can I cut a little? Can I cut a little more?

Sure. Okay, I guess. It IS the same thing. Of course! Hmm - don't see why not. Sure - what the heck.

Can I put back some metal that I cut off? Cool - here's my hand-fabricated, custom A-arm.



K
[/b]

you can only weld alittle on your a arms if it is a factory authorised repair...like the BMW's! otherwise you are cheating. It says you can replace steering wheel. If you want to weld your a arms to your frame, go for it im sure no one will protest that (they may laugh some though). If you cut grind and weld alittle you will have non stockk parts. Not the same thing as putting a quick release wheel on. If you cut weld grind and lighten any part, other than whats outlined, its illegal. if you reinforce your chassis beyond FACTORY repair, illegal. It is common sense what can and can't be done for the most part but im all for clarifying some stuff as it confuses people into random wandering the streets...

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is silly!

ITCS-13 9. b. Any steering wheel except wood trimmed types may be used. Any shift knob may be used.

puh leeze! If the steering wheel is a quick release type and requires a hub adapter to be welded on, c'mon dude! Its a steering wheel and safety item for some in smaller cars. This is CLUB RACING...that is rule torture! there is no performance advantage and it says you can replace the wheel. The wheel attaches with a bolt. Hardware is open. Bolt replaced with a blob of weld. Ha!! [/b]

And we have proven Dick's first post. Some are torturers because they EXTEND the rules, and some are torturers because they read a strict interpretation.

I didn't think I was a torturer, but I am! An "Strict Torturer" (ST) I will call myself.

AB
"The first step to a full recovery is knowing you have a problem...'

 

[tom91ita]

Tom, While I agree in part I ask again can you point me to the spot that says quick release hubs are legal? I know in other classes it specifically allows them?
[/b]

Joe, honestly, I can't but I can show you steering wheels that are attached with quick release hubs.

I maintain that it is implied because if I can use "Any" steering wheel, I can use those that are attached with quick release hubs.

I don't mean to sound like a smart aleck, but can anyone show me where we can use air pressures outside the car's recommended ranges? I can't find it anywhere nor can I find where we can use pure nitrogen. I can't even find where it says I am allowed to get in the car.

If the media used to inflate the tire is "free" then can I use water and sand to inflate my spare? Does it have to be the OEM spacesaver spare? Can my spare "tire" be metal?

This is club racing and although I am not for the wild west, we need to have reasonableness ourselves. I say it is reasonable to use a Q.R. hub because I can use "Any" steering wheel. With as restrictive as the cars can be with door bars, the better bucket seats, the HANS systems, etc., etc., I wouldn't be surprised that in 1-2 years quick release hubs will be mandated as safety equipment.

then we'll have something new to discuss!

tom

 

[Greg Amy]

I remember, way back in the old daze of 1999, when I decided to consider coming back to Improved Touring. I had not built an IT car since the mid- to late-80's, back when IT was only a few years old. The rules themselves hadn't really changed much; it was pretty much the same stuff with minor details in areas such as safety (e.g., welded rollcages), prep, (e.g., interiors all removed), and philosophy (e.g., no more intent for dual-purpose and no longer required to be capable of being registered.)

Then I went to the track and looked at the cars.

Boy, was I shocked at some of the things I saw. I still saw most of the field filled with "backyard" cars, those built in some guy's garage, displacing the Family Truckster, being worked on between diaper changes and taking the kids to football practice, being pulled on cheap single-axle trailers behind the Truckster. However, there was an inkling of the things to come: high-tech cars with serious suspensions (coilover spring conversions, remote reservoir shocks, megabuck seats and safety equipment), seriously expensive wheels and tires, enclosed trailers being pulled by expensive diesel trucks. I also saw some items of prep that caused me to wonder how it could be legal (e.g., splitters). I thought to myself these were either folks with too much money and time and didn't figure they could cut it in National racing, or this category was well on its way to being well out of reach of the folks it was originally intended.

Within the last 5 years, this situation has spiralled out of control. Coupled with the increasing number of megaprep efforts of several major players, discussions such as the intent and legality of rules is quickly making Improved Touring less and less attractive, even to me. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, if I were to start over I seriously doubt I would build an IT car, and discussions like the one in this thread making it even less attractive. Why spend all this time, money, and effort in order to simply try to keep up with a ruleset that is in effect constantly changing? How is it that one can build a good car - at any level - and expect to be able to keep up with competitors that are constantly re-interpreting the rules via loopholes and tortured verbiage? Sit back and REALLY THINK about the defacto and dejure rules changes we've experienced just in the last five years! Think about all the different mods and prep that have become legal either a specific change in the rules or by someone creatively interpreting the status quo acceptance of what those rules mean. It's pretty absurd when you think about it.

Frankly, if we keep this up (or tolerate it, or do not fight it) then I honestly believe the future of Improved Touring is no longer attractive to me. For less money, time, and effort I can buy, build, and prep one of the soon-to-be-new class Touring 3 or 4 cars which will require a lot of prep but significantly less options in mods, plus the rules will be enforced with a vengeance. Even if I only race it on a regional level, at least I'm working on a somewhat stable and level playing field. This is something that I've personally been giving serious consideration, and discussions like the above do nothing to dissuade me.

Guys, if this was 1999 and I was reading this board, I'd avoid IT like the plague. Seriously.

I think a lot of you enjoy the challenge of finding loopholes through which to jump; I certainly enjoy the mental exercise. But by doing so we're setting ourselves up for significant failure.

I'm going to step back away from the keyboard for a while, 'cause this board is driving me nuts. The "what ifs" and "could we" and "how about this" just makes me ill as to the future prospects. I'll pop in and read every once in a while, but for the short term I'm going to put my fingers in my ears, go "la la la la la I'm not listening to you" and hope that when I return y'all have gotten it all out of your system and the world is back to normal...

 

[Doc Bro]

Hey I just got a killer deal on spherical spaker bearings if anyone is in.............



I'll go back to my O.W. Holmes quote;

"We need an education in the obvious more than an investigation of the obscure"




And by the way....It amazes me that in Jake's post the CRB allowed tack welds of SB's to save costs to the competitor.......please tell me this is not the same CRB the thought MOTEC was good for the class.

UHHH....Split Personalty issue????



Let's keep it fun and attainable for the masses; the two are not mutually exclusive!!

R

 

[Joe Harlan]

3. Any steering wheel and wheel quick release mechanism
complying with GCR Section 11.2.1.U., may be used.[/b]

Tom this is from the Prod section

b. Steering Wheel
1. Any steering wheel and wheel quick release mechanism
complying with GCR Section 11.2.1.U., may be used.
Refer to Section D.5.e.2., of these rules for additional
steering specifications.[/b]

This is from GT

Again applying common sense one could say that a QR is spelled out in these classes and with a spec to top it off. So I fail to see how we make the common sense jump to them being allowed in IT. Not trying to be a smart a** either but no where does it say QR is legal. I believe it should but I currently don't believe it does and we currently don't install them in my shop.

 

[Greg Amy]

...where does it say QR is legal.[/b]

It doesn't have to, Joe.

This steering wheel argument is just plain stupid, the kind of s**t that really pisses me off.

Any steering wheel can used; that means that you unbolt the factory steering wheel from your car in whatever manner the service manual specifies. Then whatever you now have in your hand can be replaced with anything else, in the same manner that the service manual specifies (if your FSM says to reweld the steering wheel back on, then freakin' knock yourself out.)

So, you buy an appropriate steering wheel adapter and BOLT IT TO THE STEERING COLUMN USING THE SAME HARDWARE; it's legal. Then anything outside of that is legal too, 'cause it's all part of the replacement of the steering wheel. Hell, if you want to use a pair of vicegrips (Planet6Grips - copyrighted) and it bolts to the column, have at it. Most reasonable people will buy a Momo or Grant or Pep Boys steering wheel to bolt onto the adapter, and many will bolt a quick release hub in betwen the adapter and wheel.

It's all legal, and - MORE IMPORTANTLY - it's all within the philosophy of the class.

You want to find something legal to the rules but outside the philosophy of the class? How about if I bolt (or WELD!) on an extension with a u-joint, then a shaft extension, then a steering quickener http://www.speed-shop.net/stockcarproducts/steer4.htm). I'll build a structure to support it that bolts (or welds!) onto the car somewhere. Now, not only do I have a faster ratio steering, but I can extend the steering such that I can move my driver's seat back and down a good foot or more, moving my CG around to my advantage quite a bit (good thing I'm 200# and have long legs!) Hell, since I an mod the car to isntall safety equipment, maybe I'll beat the crap out of the exhaust tunnel (since I'm using a side-exit exhaust) and move it even more! Hey, I can do pedal pads, right? KEWL! I'll make those pads REALLY THICK that way I can REALLY move the stuff around!

Hey, "it meets the rules" don't it??? Sure it does! But if you think it meets the philosophy, you're an idiot.

And you think these ideas stop at the steering wheel? You think there aren't a hell of a lot of ideas using just the words and ignoring the intent and philosophy...?

I'm seriously trying to get outta here, but I seem to be afflicted with advancing stages the "Andy Bettencourt disease"...

 

[tom91ita]

Joe,

Thanks for the references. I mean that sincerely. I was honestly not aware of those items spelled out.

Which sort of goes back to this history thing with regards to who knows what & when in the IT rules.

It would never have occurred to me that to understand the IT rules, I needed to study the GT and Prod rules.

This supports Greg's contention to stay away from IT I suppose, because we apparently cannot know what to do by reading the rules sections associated with our class. We have to study the other groups and know what rulings went what way in the past for them also.

I hate this crap. I am honestly trying to have a good, safe, legal car that is prepared to the limits of my ability and compromised by my budget. When you see many cars prepared in a certain manner and you look at the rules and say, "oh, I see why" and then get burned, that will not help the sport either.

it's not like a hub is something you can't see like an aluminum flywheel and high compression pistons. it is an open statement that this is how i've understood the rules.

so the concensus on this board is that the rule actually means "Any steering wheel that is attached in the original manner and without a quick release hub."?

Tom

 

[Joe Harlan]

Greg, you can save your pissed off stuff for somebody else. I agree they should eb allowed in the fashion you stated or even welded cause its a cheaper fix. I was using the steering wheel argument as a point that our rules all of them should be common.If the QR is allowed it should read the same in all classes for that section. then there is no guessing. I build a lot of cars and i reference every class for an understanding of how we get there from here. I see rule that allows a steering wheel to be replaced but I don't see the QR section thatis spelled out in other classes I couldn't make the jump to putting them in my cars. It's kinda like the passenger seat rule. It allows you to remove the stock one but you'd be busted with a racing seat over there for track rides at lunch time. Stupid? Yep! but that our rules sometimes.

 

[Matt Rowe]

so the concensus on this board is that the rule actually means "Any steering wheel that is attached in the original manner and without a quick release hub."?
[/b]

Tom, not only is the consensus reached here not worth anything, but I would say we are not at a consensus of any kind.

I have real problems with the notion of other rules sets being used to define our own. A couple of things to consider:

First, the ITAC has utterly no control over Prod, GT, SS and so on. If they make a change to their rules it can not/should not effect the legality of an IT car. In this case, using Joe's logic if prod and GT removed the specific reference to QR hubs that would suddenly change IT. It can be difficult enough when the ITAC can only advise the CRB on IT issues, why open the door to the reasoning that a decision in another class changes to legality in our own?

Second, there is no guarantee that the different groups (prod, gt, it and so on) ever looked at each others rule on a given matter before putting pen to paper. The logic of saying that if IT had intended QR hubs than they would have written it the way prod does if flawed. By trying and interpret a rule in IT based of another class is trying to read intent into the rule. What if the ITAC is the first to write a rule and when prod writes something similar the wording is different? Should that change the legality in IT?

Finally to Greg, while I can understand your frustration I don't think running a competitive T3 or T4 is going realistically be cheaper than a competive ITA car. And then you have to factor in the car of the month consideration in Touring where IT tends to be much more stable. Just take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and maybe you'll remember why this is supposed to be fun.

 

[Joe Harlan]

Tom, not only is the consensus reached here not worth anything, but I would say we are not at a consensus of any kind.

I have real problems with the notion of other rules sets being used to define our own. A couple of things to consider:

First, the ITAC has utterly no control over Prod, GT, SS and so on. If they make a change to their rules it can not/should not effect the legality of an IT car. In this case, using Joe's logic if prod and GT removed the specific reference to QR hubs that would suddenly change IT. It can be difficult enough when the ITAC can only advise the CRB on IT issues, why open the door to the reasoning that a decision in another class changes to legality in our own?

Second, there is no guarantee that the different groups (prod, gt, it and so on) ever looked at each others rule on a given matter before putting pen to paper. The logic of saying that if IT had intended QR hubs than they would have written it the way prod does if flawed. By trying and interpret a rule in IT based of another class is trying to read intent into the rule. What if the ITAC is the first to write a rule and when prod writes something similar the wording is different? Should that change the legality in IT?

Finally to Greg, while I can understand your frustration I don't think running a competitive T3 or T4 is going realistically be cheaper than a competive ITA car. And then you have to factor in the car of the month consideration in Touring where IT tends to be much more stable. Just take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and maybe you'll remember why this is supposed to be fun.
[/b]

Matt, you can believe that comparing is flawed logic but using that logic I have been proved right more than i have been proved wrong.

Greg I do agree that an adapter that bolts on like a stock steering wheel would be legal. Again guys I could care less. I was sharing how i get to reading certain things like this and trying to help. Maybe I am to conservative but that shouldn't be an issue.

Touring will not be cheaper and I promise it is way more frustrating than any other cars I have done.



edit: added SS/T rule

27. Aftermarket steering wheels, and their required mounting
modifications, are permitted.